The End? Unions in college sports.

[MtnDevil95]

A couple of thoughts on this whole unionization crap.

First, the NCAA makes a rather large deal about the athletes being amateurs. If the athletes are unionized employees, then they are being paid and are no longer amateurs, therefore no longer eligible for the NCAA? Member institutions would forfeit membership? The NCAA be forced to adjust amateur status or risk big money makers finally leaving and forming their own league?

Second, this ruling only applies to private institutions. Therefore, under the current ruling some of the biggest players in the game are not eligible for unionization. If private schools can unionize and offer additional compensation, could the scales tip in favor of Stanford, Miami over the likes of Alabama, Florida State?

[HeffnerIV]

A couple of thoughts on this whole unionization crap.

First, the NCAA makes a rather large deal about the athletes being amateurs. If the athletes are unionized employees, then they are being paid and are no longer amateurs, therefore no longer eligible for the NCAA? Member institutions would forfeit membership? The NCAA be forced to adjust amateur status or risk big money makers finally leaving and forming their own league?

Second, this ruling only applies to private institutions. Therefore, under the current ruling some of the biggest players in the game are not eligible for unionization. If private schools can unionize and offer additional compensation, could the scales tip in favor of Stanford, Miami over the likes of Alabama, Florida State?

I think it actually puts the privates in more of a predicament as it stands. It's really tough for then to support football, and be competitive, as it stands. Many of them may just decide to drop football

[DoubleA]

http://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news- ... y-athletes

Here's a link to the NRLB decision regarding Northwestern U. football players. The statement of facts clearly point towards an employer-employee relationship at Northwestern U, when you consider the level of control over athletes' daily schedule and the duties. Even the football organization looks like a corporate environment, with a director of operations, director of personnel, etc. The hours required for BCS college football are similar to a 50-60 hour a week job and academics clearly play a subordinate role to athletic duties. And players are "paid" in terms of grant-in-aid worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars over four years. The NCAA's contention that these are students who participate in athletics purely for the love of the game is laughable. Maybe they are confusing varsity athletics with club sports.

Universities need to take a step back and re-evaluate the desired role of athletics within their respective institutions. I would say start with cutting way back on the number of hours allowed for varsity sports and put the demands of playing the sports more in balance with academics. Allow the athletes to be true students first, and athletes second. Otherwise, let's stop kidding ourselves- scrap the NCAA "Student-Athletics" model and call it what it is, a professional farm system for the NFL and NBA.

If pay for play moves forward, we will quickly see further shake out among the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" of college sports. It would not be surprising to see formation of a "Super" division, where the $100MM enterprises that inhabit the SEC and Big 10 form their own league and pay their players in some type of "profit sharing" arrangement. Then maybe the ASU's of the world can focus on forming an actual "Student-Athlete" model, where the players are students first and athletes second.

[Maddog1956]

http://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news- ... y-athletes

Here's a link to the NRLB decision regarding Northwestern U. football players. The statement of facts clearly point towards an employer-employee relationship at Northwestern U, when you consider the level of control over athletes' daily schedule and the duties. Even the football organization looks like a corporate environment, with a director of operations, director of personnel, etc. The hours required for BCS college football are similar to a 50-60 hour a week job and academics clearly play a subordinate role to athletic duties. And players are "paid" in terms of grant-in-aid worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars over four years. The NCAA's contention that these are students who participate in athletics purely for the love of the game is laughable. Maybe they are confusing varsity athletics with club sports.

Universities need to take a step back and re-evaluate the desired role of athletics within their respective institutions. I would say start with cutting way back on the number of hours allowed for varsity sports and put the demands of playing the sports more in balance with academics. Allow the athletes to be true students first, and athletes second. Otherwise, let's stop kidding ourselves- scrap the NCAA "Student-Athletics" model and call it what it is, a professional farm system for the NFL and NBA.

If pay for play moves forward, we will quickly see further shake out among the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" of college sports. It would not be surprising to see formation of a "Super" division, where the $100MM enterprises that inhabit the SEC and Big 10 form their own league and pay their players in some type of "profit sharing" arrangement. Then maybe the ASU's of the world can focus on forming an actual "Student-Athlete" model, where the players are students first and athletes second.

I wish I could have said something as well! Great concept Student-Athletics.

[bcoach]

OK - question for any tax 'experts' out there... On the radio this morning (ESPN/Mike&Mike) a legal expert was stating that the financial compensation issue with taxes will not really be an issue. He stated that scholarships are "Grants in Aid" and that laws governing grants are well established and are exempt from any tax issues.

I have learned (through hard lessons) that the IRS has incredible guidelines on "what" compensation is (and in turn what is taxed). Since college athletes could be considered employees, scholarships do not become a form of compensation?

If it was that easy to define compensation as a "Grant in Aid", why wouldn't private businesses do that?

(Man - the questions and epiphanies that are starting to hit the NCAA and college sports...)

The tax expert doesn't know what he is talking about. You don't give employees grants in aid. You give them pay in various forms. I have also heard the independent contractor claim and that does not work either.

[bcoach]

I have to laugh about all the riches universities are making off the backs of student athletes. Eliminate student fees from the equation and then tell me how the universities are doing. If we want to talk about fair lets talk fair. Eliminate student fees and let students buy tickets to games they want to attend. That would be fair to the better than half the student population who does not go to the games. Eliminate to big profits that are made off the students backs. I'll bet this gets some people fired up but that is because it is a fact some people don't like to hear about. The athlete is not forced to play but the student is forced to pay. Now I love my football but if we want to talk about what is fair lets tell the whole story.

[goapps93]

Here's a novel idea to help keep the student first in "student-athlete", require "student-athletes" to meet the EXACT same admission requirements as any other student, and don't lower standards across the board to get athletes in. I think we would quickly see the NFL and NBA developing their own farm systems when a very large number of their prospects wouldn't be accepted into college.

[appdaze]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

[bcoach]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

What rule would that be?

[WVAPPeer]

Some of you guys need to get off your high horses and realize this is the ONLY shot for some kids (many maybe) - I'm not taking a stand one way or another about the labor issue - paying athletes, etc., at this point in time, HOWEVER to just flatly say - "Here's a scholarship, everything is free - take it or leave it" and that's the end of the story and NO other issues come into play - is asinine ---

[appdaze]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

What rule would that be?

The rules set in place by the players associations of the pro leagues like the nfl and nba. aka one and done rules for example.

[JCline0429]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

What rule would that be?

The rules set in place by the players associations of the pro leagues like the nfl and nba. aka one and done rules for example.

I don't follow the NBA (well hardly at all), but isn't there an NBA "star" who went straight from high school into the NBA?

[bcoach]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

What rule would that be?

The rules set in place by the players associations of the pro leagues like the nfl and nba. aka one and done rules for example.

I don't follow the NBA (well hardly at all), but isn't there an NBA "star" who went straight from high school into the NBA?

I could be way wrong here as I am no expert in this. I don't think you have to go to collage. I think there is an option to be of a certain age. Again I could be wrong.

[bcoach]

Some of you guys need to get off your high horses and realize this is the ONLY shot for some kids (many maybe) - I'm not taking a stand one way or another about the labor issue - paying athletes, etc., at this point in time, HOWEVER to just flatly say - "Here's a scholarship, everything is free - take it or leave it" and that's the end of the story and NO other issues come into play - is asinine ---

What other issues? I am willing to listen.

[appst89]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

What rule would that be?

The rules set in place by the players associations of the pro leagues like the nfl and nba. aka one and done rules for example.

I don't follow the NBA (well hardly at all), but isn't there an NBA "star" who went straight from high school into the NBA?

Moses Malone was the first and several others including Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and LeBron James have gone from high school straight to the NBA. Howe, they no longer allow that, which is why thre are so many one-and-done players in college. The NBA says you must be 19 to enter their draft, so kids go to school for one year and then bolt for the NBA.

[eggers76]

"The NBA says you must be 19 to enter their draft, so kids go to school for one year and then bolt for the NBA."

This is true and it had to ratified by the NBA players union that was at first against any such requirement. To carry it one step further, the new NBA commish would like to change this rule to a 2 year and 20 year old requirement. Again I believe any change would have to be approved by the players union.

[JCline0429]

I have to laugh about all the riches universities are making off the backs of student athletes. Eliminate student fees from the equation and then tell me how the universities are doing. If we want to talk about fair lets talk fair. Eliminate student fees and let students buy tickets to games they want to attend. That would be fair to the better than half the student population who does not go to the games. Eliminate to big profits that are made off the students backs. I'll bet this gets some people fired up but that is because it is a fact some people don't like to hear about. The athlete is not forced to play but the student is forced to pay. Now I love my football but if we want to talk about what is fair lets tell the whole story.

In a perfect world, all students who are full time, should be allowed in "free" to any and all university athletic events (since they pay mandatory athletic fees) ahead of the big donors, comps, et. al. Just my opinion.

[JCline0429]

If you want student athletes than eliminate the rules that force athletes to go to college before they go to the pros or semi pro leagues.

What rule would that be?

The rules set in place by the players associations of the pro leagues like the nfl and nba. aka one and done rules for example.

I don't follow the NBA (well hardly at all), but isn't there an NBA "star" who went straight from high school into the NBA?

Moses Malone was the first and several others including Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and LeBron James have gone from high school straight to the NBA. Howe, they no longer allow that, which is why thre are so many one-and-done players in college. The NBA says you must be 19 to enter their draft, so kids go to school for one year and then bolt for the NBA.

I think LeBron games is the one I was thinking of. I do agree that no 18 year old should be thrown into the lion's den of (politically incorrect) "thug" ball. Where they would play ball to keep up their skills until they were 19 or 20...I have no idea.

BTW, does a high school player have to enter the draft to sign with a team?

[Maddog1956]

Here's a novel idea to help keep the student first in "student-athlete", require "student-athletes" to meet the EXACT same admission requirements as any other student, and don't lower standards across the board to get athletes in. I think we would quickly see the NFL and NBA developing their own farm systems when a very large number of their prospects wouldn't be accepted into college.

I agree 100% about the exact same requirements.

A farm system might work but the main draw for college ball is the college name.

Instead I just think you'd have impressive schools with less than impressive teams, but in the end they would play only each other and no one would really care. Harvard-Yale still draws 50k. I mean what's wrong with crappy colleges being know for good football team. It use to be that way with small private schools anyway.

[JCline0429]

Here's a novel idea to help keep the student first in "student-athlete", require "student-athletes" to meet the EXACT same admission requirements as any other student, and don't lower standards across the board to get athletes in. I think we would quickly see the NFL and NBA developing their own farm systems when a very large number of their prospects wouldn't be accepted into college.

I agree 100% about the exact same requirements.

A farm system might work but the main draw for college ball is the college name.

Instead I just think you'd have impressive schools with less than impressive teams, but in the end they would play only each other and no one would really care. Harvard-Yale still draws 50k. I mean what's wrong with crappy colleges being know for good football team. It use to be that way with small private schools anyway.

Reminder, "small privates" is dirty terminology to many members of this board. On my part, one of the things, I for one, will miss about the SoCon is that we, for the most part, competed with schools with high academic standards. I fully realize that I'm likely the only one on this board who feels that way.