NCAA to UNC: "It is our business"

[AppSt94]

This ruling was very much appropriate as the NCAA did not have a leg to stand on. The NCAA is a governing body of college athletics. They have minimal jurisdiction on non athletic aspects but not accademics. They are in charge of ensuring that athletes are not given preferential treatment above the regular student body. Clearly this was not the case here as these classes were available to everyone and all students had access to the liberal grading system. This was a problem for the school administration to deal with, and they failed to do so. Point blank, it was none of their business and wasted a lot of time and money to come to this conclusion.

I get the points that this is a black eye for the state education system, but for those of you that believe there are classes offered at universities around the country, you would be sadly mistaken. And while you are busy thumbing your nose at UNC for their lack of integrity, how do you feel about Appalachian State's season opening opponent next year? If you insist that you will never step foot in Chapel Hill again, I will gladly purchase your tickets the State College next year.

[AppDawg]

UNC is OJ and Hillary rolled into one.

The NCAA is the Republican congress... all talk, no action.

[AppSt94]

UNC is OJ and Hillary rolled into one.

The NCAA is the Republican congress... all talk, no action.

I would agree with this comparison. All were guilty of something, but the prosecution couldn't prove it.

[eggers76]

Let this sink in...UNC spent $18 million dollars not to defend their innocence ( much less honor), Bubba admitted to academic fraud. They spent the money to defend their ill-gotten banners. Their money was well spent in that the lawyers found a loop hole and they keep the banners.
Also, Huck gets bonus money for the "academic" success of his players. It's disgusting to me.
I believe very few programs are pure but I can't understand anyone defending this decision.

[bcoach]

This ruling was very much appropriate as the NCAA did not have a leg to stand on. The NCAA is a governing body of college athletics. They have minimal jurisdiction on non athletic aspects but not accademics. They are in charge of ensuring that athletes are not given preferential treatment above the regular student body. Clearly this was not the case here as these classes were available to everyone and all students had access to the liberal grading system. This was a problem for the school administration to deal with, and they failed to do so. Point blank, it was none of their business and wasted a lot of time and money to come to this conclusion.

I get the points that this is a black eye for the state education system, but for those of you that believe there are classes offered at universities around the country, you would be sadly mistaken. And while you are busy thumbing your nose at UNC for their lack of integrity, how do you feel about Appalachian State's season opening opponent next year? If you insist that you will never step foot in Chapel Hill again, I will gladly purchase your tickets the State College next year.

My tickets for that opener will be there for you to purchase because I am not buying them, nor will I ever buy tickets for unc.

[HeffnerIV]

Proof that the human mind can convince itself of anything.

[moonshine]

While I understand the "academic" argument and that the NCAA has no jurisdiction over "academics", what I'm failing to comprehend is that athletes benefitted the most from these fake classes to maintain eligibility. It was reported that roughly 3,100 students took these classes and 47.6% were athletes. That is over 1,400 athletes. UNC has an enrollment over 29k and athletes make up less than 2-3% of enrollment. Yet athletes took these classes at a much higher rate than the non-athlete student body.

It's blatantly obvious the courses were set up to benefit athletes the most otherwise the enrollment percentage would've been less than 5% by athletes. The other obvious point this benefitted the athletes compared to other students is that athletes had counselors "recommending" a particular grade to remain eligible, according to Wainstein report. Did regular students have someone lobbying on their behalf for a certain grade? If not, that's the impermissible benefit!

[WVAPPeer]

Some must have missed my earlier comment - so I will re-post it ---

The thing about this - and I have heard this directly from those who "took" the fake courses - is that it wasn't generally known by the other students at large - players told friends and relatives about the classes ---

[AppSt94]

The other obvious point this benefitted the athletes compared to other students is that athletes had counselors "recommending" a particular grade to remain eligible, according to Wainstein report. Did regular students have someone lobbying on their behalf for a certain grade? If not, that's the impermissible benefit!

This point would be difficult to prove in a court of law.

[AppSt94]

Proof that the human mind can convince itself of anything.

Perspectives create opinions. Opinions create discussions.

[moonshine]

This point would be difficult to prove in a court of law.

How did it make it into the Wainstein Report? Are you implying that if Crowder or the "counselors" were subpoenaed and offered immunity, if necessary, that they would lie under oath and risk a perjury charge? Would they not be able to subpoena some regular students to find out if they had someone lobbying for grades on their behalf?

[Rick83]

They may still face penalties or consequences from the Southern Association of Colleges if they choose to re-open their review of the situation since the NCAA review deemed that courses "were available to all students," and clearly not real courses. This wouldn't take away championship banners or have any sports-related penalties but Carolina's strong academic reputation and accreditation could suffer. It's still a black eye on a great and proud institution.

[Gonzo]

The NCAA made itself clear: if spend enough $ after the fact you may perpetrate the grandest academic fraud scandal in US history with impunity. This is indefensible no matter what color shirt you wear in March. Celebrate that your pretty little banners get to stay put, UNC fans, but the world knows you have no integrity.

They've undermined the very concept of the "student-athlete." The NCAA's primary role is to protect that concept. UNC robbed their students of a college education so they could profit from their free labor and the volume of hush money ruled the day. There is no longer any doubt that the NCAA is corrupt.

I'd like to see the other UNC System schools band together with some kind of statement denying UNC's status as North Carolina's "flagship" public University.

Pay attention to individual human reactions to this. It will tell you a lot about that person's values and whether they're a person of integrity.

Lol. And what school do you propose be the state's flagship? UNC is the country's oldest public university. It has a rich history and is responsible for educating some of the State's most influential leaders.

Look, I'm not saying the University doesn't have its flaws. This academic scandal was horrendous. But it's over (thank god). And UNC has certainly suffered in the court of public perception. The university is heading in the right direction towards rebuilding that perception and that is important. Having a strong flagship university in NC is important for the well-being of, not just our university system, but of our State as a whole. Unfortunately this isn't something our GA or the BOG understand all of the time.

Uncle Tom.

[AppSt94]

This point would be difficult to prove in a court of law.

How did it make it into the Wainstein Report? Are you implying that if Crowder or the "counselors" were subpoenaed and offered immunity, if necessary, that they would lie under oath and risk a perjury charge? Would they not be able to subpoena some regular students to find out if they had someone lobbying for grades on their behalf?

To back pedal on my comment a bit. First off the only way that it reaches a court of law is if UNC were penalized by the NCAA. UNC would have grounds to sue the NCAA for over stepping jurisdiction. Immunity would not apply as there was no crime committed so the leverage of immunity would not apply. I will appeal to the legal mind of Gonzo to correct me if I am wrong.

But as this would be in essence a civil suit, there is no burden of proof and the NCAA would not win.

[HeffnerIV]

Proof that the human mind can convince itself of anything.

Perspectives create opinions. Opinions create discussions.

So does a lack of perspective.

[bcoach]

The NCAA made itself clear: if spend enough $ after the fact you may perpetrate the grandest academic fraud scandal in US history with impunity. This is indefensible no matter what color shirt you wear in March. Celebrate that your pretty little banners get to stay put, UNC fans, but the world knows you have no integrity.

They've undermined the very concept of the "student-athlete." The NCAA's primary role is to protect that concept. UNC robbed their students of a college education so they could profit from their free labor and the volume of hush money ruled the day. There is no longer any doubt that the NCAA is corrupt.

I'd like to see the other UNC System schools band together with some kind of statement denying UNC's status as North Carolina's "flagship" public University.

Pay attention to individual human reactions to this. It will tell you a lot about that person's values and whether they're a person of integrity.

Lol. And what school do you propose be the state's flagship? UNC is the country's oldest public university. It has a rich history and is responsible for educating some of the State's most influential leaders.

Look, I'm not saying the University doesn't have its flaws. This academic scandal was horrendous. But it's over (thank god). And UNC has certainly suffered in the court of public perception. The university is heading in the right direction towards rebuilding that perception and that is important. Having a strong flagship university in NC is important for the well-being of, not just our university system, but of our State as a whole. Unfortunately this isn't something our GA or the BOG understand all of the time.

You are kidding right?

[moonshine]

To back pedal on my comment a bit. First off the only way that it reaches a court of law is if UNC were penalized by the NCAA. UNC would have grounds to sue the NCAA for over stepping jurisdiction. Immunity would not apply as there was no crime committed so the leverage of immunity would not apply. I will appeal to the legal mind of Gonzo to correct me if I am wrong.

But as this would be in essence a civil suit, there is no burden of proof and the NCAA would not win.

I figured there was no crime with regards to the NCAA, hence why I said "if necessary". Obviously those I mentioned could plead the 5th but it seems if the information is out there, you could find someone involved willing to implicate UNC.

As far as a crime, one could argue fraud perpetrated by the university at the expense of tax payers if any one of the 3,100 students said to have taken these fake classes and used financial aid to pay for said class. Or if the professor and assistant received compensation for "teaching" the classes via state funds. That shouldn't be difficult to ascertain the evidence and prove in court.

[appbio91]

This ruling was very much appropriate as the NCAA did not have a leg to stand on. The NCAA is a governing body of college athletics. They have minimal jurisdiction on non athletic aspects but not accademics. They are in charge of ensuring that athletes are not given preferential treatment above the regular student body. Clearly this was not the case here as these classes were available to everyone and all students had access to the liberal grading system. This was a problem for the school administration to deal with, and they failed to do so. Point blank, it was none of their business and wasted a lot of time and money to come to this conclusion.

I get the points that this is a black eye for the state education system, but for those of you that believe there are classes offered at universities around the country, you would be sadly mistaken. And while you are busy thumbing your nose at UNC for their lack of integrity, how do you feel about Appalachian State's season opening opponent next year? If you insist that you will never step foot in Chapel Hill again, I will gladly purchase your tickets the State College next year.

So you're saying they outsmarted the system by allowing a small number of the general population participate in the cheating...

[WVAPPeer]

94 - are you trying to tell us these classes were readily available to all students??? - are you sh--ing me??? - if you knew you could take courses where you were guaranteed an A, not have to go to class and only write a one page report you wouldn't have signed up for that??? - I absolutely would have!!! - what a joke ---

[AppSt94]

This ruling was very much appropriate as the NCAA did not have a leg to stand on. The NCAA is a governing body of college athletics. They have minimal jurisdiction on non athletic aspects but not accademics. They are in charge of ensuring that athletes are not given preferential treatment above the regular student body. Clearly this was not the case here as these classes were available to everyone and all students had access to the liberal grading system. This was a problem for the school administration to deal with, and they failed to do so. Point blank, it was none of their business and wasted a lot of time and money to come to this conclusion.

I get the points that this is a black eye for the state education system, but for those of you that believe there are classes offered at universities around the country, you would be sadly mistaken. And while you are busy thumbing your nose at UNC for their lack of integrity, how do you feel about Appalachian State's season opening opponent next year? If you insist that you will never step foot in Chapel Hill again, I will gladly purchase your tickets the State College next year.

So you're saying they outsmarted the system by allowing a small number of the general population participate in the cheating...

So are you saying that they limited the number of non athletes that took the class? Can you prove that students were discouraged or told that they could not take the class?

Again, I am not defending the actions of the school. I am merely stating that they played within the rules of the NCAA laws by permitting non athletes to take them. If the rule sucks or has loopholes then it is the fault of the rule maker. Was the class listed in the Course Catalog? It's not about the law, it's about what you can prove.