The Carolina Way (Cont'd)

[bcoach]

So is it true that these athletes are FORCED to take these fake classes? Do they have no say in the matter? OR were they looking for the easy way through. Have we taken ALL personal responsibility out of the lives of Americans. UNC cheated and I for one am not surprised at all about the extent. There is no excuse for what they have done but the players are just as guilty in my book. UNC owes the players no monetary damages. UNC owes the tax payers of NC the monetary damages. UNC owes the real students that were turned away to make room for these players who could not make the grade, monetary damages.

[WVAPPeer]

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-paid-2 ... /14445485/

[DoubleA]

The gift that keeps on giving...

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/l ... 29326.html

[newtoasu]

I was reading a the print copy of Friday's Wall Street Journal and they had a review of the book Cheated, by Jay Skith and Mary Wallingham on the Carolina scandal. In their review they have a large color picture of a packed Dean Dome with a killer quote.

"If you ran a college and knew that there was substantial money to be had from sports but no requirement to educate athletes, you might cut corners-that's exactly what the University of North Carolina did for nearly two decades."

[DoubleA]

If you ran a college and knew that there was substantial money to be had from sports but no requirement to educate athletes, you might cut corners-that's exactly what the University of North Carolina did for nearly two decades."

It's interesting that the UNC faculty Senate chose not to act on a faculty proposal to eliminate recruitment of players with predictive GPA < 2.3. When is the UNC administration finally going to get their head out of the sand, quit the denial game, and finally make a stand on this issue?

[DoubleA]

If you ran a college and knew that there was substantial money to be had from sports but no requirement to educate athletes, you might cut corners-that's exactly what the University of North Carolina did for nearly two decades.

It's disgusting that UNC provided special admission privileges to an athlete, to a highly competitive graduate school program that only accepted one out of three applicants for admission. And the kid had no intention of going to class or even making an attempt to earn his Master's degree. Talk about a waste of tax payer money!

[Saint3333]

Why are they participating in post season NCAA tournaments? Just when you think you've got all the underhanded ways they've manipulated the system you peel another layer of this never ending onion.

Sounds like another class action could be on the way for applicants that were rejected from these programs. Hard to prove damages though as the degree they received from another school is better in the public view than it would have been.

[DoubleA]

From Paul Barrett's review of Cheated, published on Bloomberg: "Cheated focuses unwaveringly on the bizarre and craven side effects of situating a multibillion-dollar sports-and-entertainment industry within institutions of higher education. No other country does this, and for good reason. When college football and basketball come to rival the NFL or NBA in unfettered pursuit of revenue, the compromising of academics becomes inevitable."

[Yosef]

If you ran a college and knew that there was substantial money to be had from sports but no requirement to educate athletes, you might cut corners-that's exactly what the University of North Carolina did for nearly two decades."

It's interesting that the UNC faculty Senate chose not to act on a faculty proposal to eliminate recruitment of players with predictive GPA < 2.3. When is the UNC administration finally going to get their head out of the sand, quit the denial game, and finally make a stand on this issue?

I, for one, would have a big problem eliminating recruitment of anyone based on PREDICTED GPAs. That's like arresting someone because some model somewhere predicts they would commit a crime. I don't like what's going on there either but you can't go overboard in denying opportunities to good kids either.

[DoubleA]

I, for one, would have a big problem eliminating recruitment of anyone based on PREDICTED GPAs.


We're talking about "students" who are off the chart in regards to admissions standards. Their high school grades and test scores are so low that they require Special Admission (so called "committee cases") to gain admission. In truth, these are candidates for the JUCO route, community college, or perhaps prep school.

[MountainMan]

Since Predicted GPAs are used as part of the regular admission/rejection decision, it makes total sense to use them to some significant degree in making decisions on STUDENT athletes.

Predicted GPA is simply a modeled value based on multiple academic related variables that show strong correlation to actual academic performance -- high school GPA, class rank, SAT/ACT scores, etc. It's not intended to be a great predictor of exact/specific GPA in college, but research has shown it is a very strong predictor of general categories of performance -- high level of success, moderate success, survive, unlikely to make it, etc.

[AppinVA]

Is this the "graduate school I probably can't get into?" I guess not, I can't average 15 and 10' or run a 4.3 40.

[bcoach]

There is a very simple way to handle this. Send EVERYONE through the same admission procedure. Hide the fact that they play a sport. If they can't get in as a student then they can't get in. What a great incentive to start paying attention to school in middle school and high school. We have many athletes who get very good grades because they did the right thing years ago. If you keep the bar low many kids will only work to that level.

[moehler]

As much as I hate Notre Dame, that's exactly what they do with admissions of student athletes, the final review and decision is made by the Chancellor, he reviews them personally, and if they don't meet their standards, they are not allowed to attend the University. Many a five star football player have chosen ND only to be denied because of their grades in high school. In fact, it was rumored one of the reasons Holtz left was his frustration of landing a huge recruit only to have the administration deny him admissions. I hate Notre Dame, but you have to admire them for their stance on the student athlete, if your not going to do the work in the classroom, it doesn't matter how well you perform on field, you will not be there for long.

[wb247]

There is a very simple way to handle this. Send EVERYONE through the same admission procedure. Hide the fact that they play a sport. If they can't get in as a student then they can't get in. What a great incentive to start paying attention to school in middle school and high school. We have many athletes who get very good grades because they did the right thing years ago. If you keep the bar low many kids will only work to that level.

Just to play devil's advocate, would you also hide that fact that a kid is a musical virtuoso, does lots of volunteer work, is an eagle scout, or any other talent they spend time out of the classroom and have devoted their life to?

Is the emphasis in admissions being so weighted towards well-rounded individuals the root problem? Is well-rounded just code for wanting to admit a kid who doesn't meet academic standards but offers other "intangibles"?

[bcoach]

There is a very simple way to handle this. Send EVERYONE through the same admission procedure. Hide the fact that they play a sport. If they can't get in as a student then they can't get in. What a great incentive to start paying attention to school in middle school and high school. We have many athletes who get very good grades because they did the right thing years ago. If you keep the bar low many kids will only work to that level.

Just to play devil's advocate, would you also hide that fact that a kid is a musical virtuoso, does lots of volunteer work, is an eagle scout, or any other talent they spend time out of the classroom and have devoted their life to?

Is the emphasis in admissions being so weighted towards well-rounded individuals the root problem? Is well-rounded just code for wanting to admit a kid who doesn't meet academic standards but offers other "intangibles"?

No I would not. Any kid that played a sport would still be able to note all those things.

[DoubleA]

Is the emphasis in admissions being so weighted towards well-rounded individuals the root problem?

The problem lies in admitting kids who are simply not prepared for the academic rigors of a top four year college. I promise you the top D1 programs, including service academies, make allowances in their admissions standards for athletes. This is OK, within reason, if the kid is a serious student and has demonstrated success with good grades and scores in high school. So maybe the typical student at University X finished in the top 10% of their high school class, but said university makes allowances for excellent athletes, or piano players, who finished in the top 25% of their high school class. Where you get into trouble is in admitting kids who are in no way prepared for the rigors of top tier college academics and start dipping down into lower tier of students on the academic spectrum. A top D1 basketball program most likely would not offer a "C" level rec player a spot on their basketball team; nor should a top tier college offer first year admission for a freshman who struggled to earn C's in high school and graduated in the bottom half, or even bottom third of his high school class. You never want to shut the door completely, for if there is a will, there is a way. Like Rudy getting into Notre Dame, he had to buckle down and hit the books and prove his mettle in the classroom at a cross-town junior college before he was granted admission to Notre Dame.

[wb247]

No I would not. Any kid that played a sport would still be able to note all those things.

How is being the most promising high school violinist in the country different from being the top high school quarterback in the country? If one has better grades than the other and can get into their college solely on academics, why even bother with the extracurricular qualifications?

...So maybe the typical student at University X finished in the top 10% of their high school class, but said university makes allowances for excellent athletes, or piano players, who finished in the top 25% of their high school class...

That's pretty much my point. I see absolutely no problem with taking other attributes into account, as a supplement to academics or even as a trade-off for academic shortcomings, as long it is applied evenly and equally across the board.

[MountainMan]

How is being the most promising high school violinist in the country different from being the top high school quarterback in the country?

No one will make a $10000 donation to watch the violinist play?


(Just kidding, sort of. Don't any music majors hit me over the head with a violin for being a smart a$$.)


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[newtoasu]

How is being the most promising high school violinist in the country different from being the top high school quarterback in the country?

No one will make a $10000 donation to watch the violinist play?


(Just kidding, sort of. Don't any music majors hit me over the head with a violin for being a smart a$$.)


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I understand the gist of your post but Miriam Cannon Hayes donated millions ($10,000,000 if I remember) to the AppState music program.