Should the Sun Belt look North?

[ah59396]

Curious to everyone’s thoughts on this. I keep seeing people chat about raiding CUSA, but personally I think the MAC is prime to be plucked apart.

I’ve mentioned this before but enrollment figures out of the MAC are eye opening.

https://www.daily-chronicle.com/2019/09 ... s/arv2819/


This is just one article on NIU (a school who not long ago played in a BCS bowl) down nearly 10,000 students in a decade. CMU, EMU, and many of the northern Ohio schools are also in the same boat. Empty schools. Mid week games. Empty stadiums. Rust belt states. There are a couple healthy schools but it’s mostly ugly.

If the Sun Belt made a move to poach say, two or four strong MAC schools, then invite JMU & Marshall, you could rearrange the conference into a north and south division. Obviously we’d be in the north with JMU, Marshall and MAC+. I also think this would be very appealing to both Marshall & JMU and adding say, an Ohio and Miami OH would dramatically elevate Sun Belt academics. Yes it’s more mouths to feed but this is for fun.


Yes. This is an off-season “what if” thread. Just curious to opinions.

[hotrod2001]

Nah, The MAC is like its own little world and too far north.

If the Sun Belt were to expand, it'd probably bring up another FCS program or two like JMU, EKU and A&T. That or push UT Arlington to bring their program back, something they've toyed with for a few years now.

[EastHallApp]

I think the G5s need to be looking at ways to reduce sprawl, not expand it.

I'm so all-in on full-scale SBCUSA realignment that I don't really want to see any other alternatives that would delay or prevent it.

[ah59396]

Nah, The MAC is like its own little world and too far north.

If the Sun Belt were to expand, it'd probably bring up another FCS program or two like JMU, EKU and A&T. That or push UT Arlington to bring their program back, something they've toyed with for a few years now.

That’s fair.

Do you think the MAC will survive as an FBS football conference?

[WataugaMan]

Nah. I see a possibility of new FBS Regional Type Conference forming. Teams like: App, The Stink, Middle Tennessee, Marshall, ECU, Charlotte, ODU, Western Kentucky, Arky State

[EastHallApp]

Nah, The MAC is like its own little world and too far north.

If the Sun Belt were to expand, it'd probably bring up another FCS program or two like JMU, EKU and A&T. That or push UT Arlington to bring their program back, something they've toyed with for a few years now.

That’s fair.

Do you think the MAC will survive as an FBS football conference?

I hadn't given it any thought until I saw your post on it on another thread the other day. You raise some good points though. I also read where one of the coaches mentioned that the league gets beat up more than most in OOC play because many of the teams have to schedule three money games just to pay the bills. Not only paints a bad picture of where they are financially, but then you've got a bunch of teams getting into conference play at 1-3 or 0-4, which is obviously bad on a number of levels, not the least of which is that it's got to be tough to get fans to come out on a weeknight to watch a sub-.500 G5 team play in cold weather.

I am not knowledgeable enough about the league overall to have an informed opinion on its future, but it's gone from one of the better G5s a few years ago to pretty clearly at the bottom today, so it would seem something needs to change.

ETA: I just looked back and realized this comment wasn't directed to me so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[APPdiesel]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

[Yosef84]

From an institutional standpoint, the MAC is comprised of fine universities with strong academic reputations. There are a few programs that wouldn't be bad from a performance perspective but the problem is that expanding our footprint north would run exactly counter to the current school of thought. We don't have to add programs and, so I just don't see a benefit to adding any programs from the MAC. It would increase travel costs and complicate scheduling (travel partners) but it wouldn't improve our perception.

I just don't see the benefit.

[ah59396]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

It would immediately be the premier FCS conference and a massive rival to the MVC due to geographic footprint. Their financial situation would also be greatly improved.

Pride would obviously get in the way but I see clear benefits.

[ah59396]

From an institutional standpoint, the MAC is comprised of fine universities with strong academic reputations. There are a few programs that wouldn't be bad from a performance perspective but the problem is that expanding our footprint north would run exactly counter to the current school of thought. We don't have to add programs and, so I just don't see a benefit to adding any programs from the MAC. It would increase travel costs and complicate scheduling (travel partners) but it wouldn't improve our perception.

I just don't see the benefit.

Great point. Our footprint would get pretty gigantic and would creat some problems for travel. Would be nice to have access to Ohio for recruiting.

[VNova]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

I don't think football has much to do with their enrollment issues. NIU in-state tuition, cheapest on campus housing/meal plan, and fees amounts to $102,000 for four years. That's not including books, cost of travel, etc. Eastern Michigan costs $99,250 over 4 years with everything. Kent State is about $108,000 with everything.

For comparison, App State is about $64,000 for four years now.

If you can't afford to go to the school, football isn't going to help much. With that said, a drop to FCS could help drive down costs of attendance and at least stabilize enrollment.

[AppDawg]

My position on expansion has always been to pluck Marshall & Southern Miss away from CUSA.

[yosef13]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

I don't think football has much to do with their enrollment issues. NIU in-state tuition, cheapest on campus housing/meal plan, and fees amounts to $102,000 for four years. That's not including books, cost of travel, etc. Eastern Michigan costs $99,250 over 4 years with everything. Kent State is about $108,000 with everything.

For comparison, App State is about $64,000 for four years now.

If you can't afford to go to the school, football isn't going to help much. With that said, a drop to FCS could help drive down costs of attendance and at least stabilize enrollment.

Also worth noting, Illinois had the second largest population drop in the US in 2018, so this makes sense. The mass exodus from the northeast and the rust belt is very real. We see it everyday in Charlotte.

[asu66]

From an institutional standpoint, the MAC is comprised of fine universities with strong academic reputations. There are a few programs that wouldn't be bad from a performance perspective but the problem is that expanding our footprint north would run exactly counter to the current school of thought. We don't have to add programs and, so I just don't see a benefit to adding any programs from the MAC. It would increase travel costs and complicate scheduling (travel partners) but it wouldn't improve our perception.

I just don't see the benefit.

This, sort of!!!

The Rust Belt/MAC schools are in a world of hurt football-wise; so much so that the Sun Belt can't and shouldn't consider trying to save them. On the other hand, the southern-most MAC institution, Ohio U, would be a solid pic for athletics and academics. If this conference is going to include Marshall; Ohio U. isn't much farther north.

Realignment, when it comes around and it will, will provide a way for JMU to join a new hybrid conference that might also include institutions like App State, Ohio, WKU, Marshall, ECU, Charlotte, Coastal, GaState, GaSo, Troy, Ark State, UAB, Sou Miss. Outside, perhaps wanting in... Sou Ala, FAU, FIU, La Tech, La La.

Vivid imagination is a wonderful thing, except that...reality soon strikes.

[APPdiesel]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

I don't think football has much to do with their enrollment issues. NIU in-state tuition, cheapest on campus housing/meal plan, and fees amounts to $102,000 for four years. That's not including books, cost of travel, etc. Eastern Michigan costs $99,250 over 4 years with everything. Kent State is about $108,000 with everything.

For comparison, App State is about $64,000 for four years now.

If you can't afford to go to the school, football isn't going to help much. With that said, a drop to FCS could help drive down costs of attendance and at least stabilize enrollment.

I didn't say bad football = drop in attendance. I said good football = increase in attendance. It's exactly what took App State from 12,000 students in 2006 to almost 20,000 in 2020.

[BUTCH1991]

Just a simple no

[BeauFoster]

In my humble opinion: No, we shouldn't look north.

[AppInDC]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

I don't think football has much to do with their enrollment issues. NIU in-state tuition, cheapest on campus housing/meal plan, and fees amounts to $102,000 for four years. That's not including books, cost of travel, etc. Eastern Michigan costs $99,250 over 4 years with everything. Kent State is about $108,000 with everything.

For comparison, App State is about $64,000 for four years now.

If you can't afford to go to the school, football isn't going to help much. With that said, a drop to FCS could help drive down costs of attendance and at least stabilize enrollment.

I didn't say bad football = drop in attendance. I said good football = increase in attendance. It's exactly what took App State from 12,000 students in 2006 to almost 20,000 in 2020.

I'm sure the increasing visibility of the football program has drawn some students but I'd be cautious about chalking all of App's enrollment gains to sports. Western Carolina has an awful football program and they have increased from 8-9k to close to 12k in the same time period.

I suspect App's enrollment gains are more closely related to more people going to college plus being located in a fast growing state.

[Rick83]

MAC schools will step down to FCS before the Sunbelt voluntarily absorbs 4 of their programs.

Restructuring as an FCS conference probably isn't a bad idea for them. Get their games back on Saturdays, don't have to suckle at the ESPN teat anymore, fans actually get excited again, alumni return to campus, enrollment increases.

I don't think football has much to do with their enrollment issues. NIU in-state tuition, cheapest on campus housing/meal plan, and fees amounts to $102,000 for four years. That's not including books, cost of travel, etc. Eastern Michigan costs $99,250 over 4 years with everything. Kent State is about $108,000 with everything.

For comparison, App State is about $64,000 for four years now.

If you can't afford to go to the school, football isn't going to help much. With that said, a drop to FCS could help drive down costs of attendance and at least stabilize enrollment.

I didn't say bad football = drop in attendance. I said good football = increase in attendance. It's exactly what took App State from 12,000 students in 2006 to almost 20,000 in 2020.

I'm sure the increasing visibility of the football program has drawn some students but I'd be cautious about chalking all of App's enrollment gains to sports. Western Carolina has an awful football program and they have increased from 8-9k to close to 12k in the same time period.

I suspect App's enrollment gains are more closely related to more people going to college plus being located in a fast growing state.

I believe that the state has been running a tuition reduction program at Western to induce students to attend. This is anecdotal but several really strong students from the school where my wife teaches ended up attending Western because it's super cheap to go there now.
Your assertion may be correct but I'd be curious to see how the number of applications compare when looking pre-first national championship (or at least pre-Michigan) to after. My perception is that it's much more competitive now as you have more students applying for the limited open slots. An App professor told me that the state has basically mandated that App reach 20,000 students, which we're close to now.
So, the football success may not be the sole, or main driver, to the increase in the total student population (ie the state mandate) but I believe the quality of students that are now attending has strengthened significantly because of the higher number of applicants (football notoriety) and many strong students seem to be increasingly listing App as their first choice. Most of the kids at my wife's school identified App as having a beautiful campus and great football...

[yosef13]

Yep, all of this is connected. NIU is shrinking because the state is shrinking. App and other NC universities are growing because NC is growing.

NC was the 9th largest state in the last census . If you combine NC and SC we are the 5th largest in the country. NC was 4th in overall increase in population over the past decade, only behind Texas, Florida, and California, with no slow down in slight.

NC will likely be the 5th or 6th most populated state in 10 years. Insane. Most of our universities will struggle to keep up with the demand, and will ultimately become more competitive as a result.

I imagine I will see App at 25k to 30k in my lifetime.