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Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by NewApp » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:29 pm

Appdoggy wrote:
Rick83 wrote:I'd be careful looking at a single budget item in a vacuum and forming an opinion, budgeting for a state is a complex issue with many, many variables. There are many deserving factions fighting for a piece of the pie, for a highly simplified example; perhaps this year teachers get a decent pay raise while state troopers don't, but then it's reversed the following year to balance things out. Tough choices have to be made and I am thankful that we're in a position to build up some reserves so that when the next disaster rolls through (like Hurricane Matthew), the state will be in a position to "weather the storm" and help our residents. Contrast that to the federal budget where spending usually far exceeds revenues and the debt is increased every year. The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office issued a report last year stating that (basing this off memory) if current laws on the books stay as they are that our debt will not be sustainable in like 25 years. It'll be less than 25 years if there's a war or other significant economic downturn, already a large percentage of our federal budget goes towards debt payments. I hope that our elected officials (Dems, Repubs, Indies) have the courage and resolve to solve this problem...I'm not pushing one party or the other...I just want fiscally sound policies.
Agree that fiscal responsibility is important but, as other posters have correctly mentioned, the best economic driver for our state is education. Diverting funds from paying our public school teachers and/or from our public universities is an incredibly short sighted move.

Your point is ignoring the fact that the GA has created a much smaller pie to start with. They have fixated on lowering the income tax rate and repeatedly prioritized tax cuts for the 1% and big business over funding our most important public institutions.

Exactly, Appdoggy. They took the cap off of charter schools and just appropriated an additional $20,000,000 for private school vouchers. Most public school classes do not have textbooks anymore, at least not to bring home..
Last edited by NewApp on Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by firemoose » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:31 pm

CVAPP wrote:
bcoach wrote:
CVAPP wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote: The admins can delete the the thread. Yes, everything about a public university Is based on political funding and political ideology.

Here's another political statement: I am thankful that the NC General Assembly has not followed the lead of some states to control athletic departments.
It seems like we had a special sub-forum where things of a political nature could be discussed. It was opt-in so those offended by political discussions would not accidentally stumble into harm's way. Maybe I am misremembering and it never existed. Either way, I am not among those offended by politics. Last time I checked, APP has a college that offers degrees in political studies. Religion too.
I would like to see that come back as long as it is civil. I think the moderator justly took it down because it got out of line. I could be wrong but that is my memory of it.
I would not want to be a moderator tasked with keeping such discussions "civil". If it's opt-in for members, and not available at all to the general public, the standard should be more like nothing obscene.
The problem was it went beyond discussion and disagreements, which were many, and went into personal attacks. At that point a decision was made and 89 shut it down. A line has to be drawn at some point and on many sites that I've worked with, including national sites, personal attacks are the line. FWIW 89 sent a PM to all the admins and mods asking for input and a vote on what to do. I stand by his decision and agreed with it. We have enough people in this country today who do nothing by launch personal attacks with someone they disagree with. We've also seen those feelings rise beyond just back and fourth on a message board/news program/etc. We don't need App fans attacking each other on a personal level, opt in or not. Enough of that going on everywhere else.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Appdoggy » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:01 pm

NewApp wrote:
Appdoggy wrote:
Rick83 wrote:I'd be careful looking at a single budget item in a vacuum and forming an opinion, budgeting for a state is a complex issue with many, many variables. There are many deserving factions fighting for a piece of the pie, for a highly simplified example; perhaps this year teachers get a decent pay raise while state troopers don't, but then it's reversed the following year to balance things out. Tough choices have to be made and I am thankful that we're in a position to build up some reserves so that when the next disaster rolls through (like Hurricane Matthew), the state will be in a position to "weather the storm" and help our residents. Contrast that to the federal budget where spending usually far exceeds revenues and the debt is increased every year. The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office issued a report last year stating that (basing this off memory) if current laws on the books stay as they are that our debt will not be sustainable in like 25 years. It'll be less than 25 years if there's a war or other significant economic downturn, already a large percentage of our federal budget goes towards debt payments. I hope that our elected officials (Dems, Repubs, Indies) have the courage and resolve to solve this problem...I'm not pushing one party or the other...I just want fiscally sound policies.
Agree that fiscal responsibility is important but, as other posters have correctly mentioned, the best economic driver for our state is education. Diverting funds from paying our public school teachers and/or from our public universities is an incredibly short sighted move.

Your point is ignoring the fact that the GA has created a much smaller pie to start with. They have fixated on lowering the income tax rate and repeatedly prioritized tax cuts for the 1% and big business over funding our most important public institutions.

Exactly, Appdoggy. They took the cap off of charter schools and just appropriated an additional $20,000,000 for private school vouchers. Most public school classes do not have textbooks anymore.
Yeah what a sad joke.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Rekdiver » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:21 pm

Stonewall wrote:It might just be that there's room, and rationale to cut UNC system budgets. Perhaps a closer look is warranted.....
My friends are teachers, my wife is a high school counselor and my son is a teacher. My mother was a teacher, my father a principal then an administrator. You sir do not understand education and the challenges. Our once fine educational system at all levels is being destroyed by partisan politics and just plain ignorance.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by CVAPP » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:23 am

firemoose wrote: The problem was it went beyond discussion and disagreements, which were many, and went into personal attacks. At that point a decision was made and 89 shut it down. A line has to be drawn at some point and on many sites that I've worked with, including national sites, personal attacks are the line. FWIW 89 sent a PM to all the admins and mods asking for input and a vote on what to do. I stand by his decision and agreed with it. We have enough people in this country today who do nothing by launch personal attacks with someone they disagree with. We've also seen those feelings rise beyond just back and fourth on a message board/news program/etc. We don't need App fans attacking each other on a personal level, opt in or not. Enough of that going on everywhere else.
I support that reasoning and the decision that was made. I am just glad to know I was not recalling something that never existed. I hope this thread stays civil because I think efficiency is very much a core Mountaineer value.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Rekdiver » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:57 am

If you want to see under funded efficiency just look at the Marine Corp!

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by NewApp » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:58 am

Rekdiver wrote:
Stonewall wrote:It might just be that there's room, and rationale to cut UNC system budgets. Perhaps a closer look is warranted.....
My friends are teachers, my wife is a high school counselor and my son is a teacher. My mother was a teacher, my father a principal then an administrator. You sir do not understand education and the challenges. Our once fine educational system at all levels is being destroyed by partisan politics and just plain ignorance.
Total agreement, Rek. Good post.
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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Rick83 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:21 am

I stand by what I posted earlier but will say no more and instead I'm choosing to celebrate what we have in common...the strongest common ground that we all have here is our love of App State and our mighty Mountaineers. This board is actually one of my escapes from the political maelstrom that is being generated from both the left and the right. Counting down the days to kick-off in Athens!

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Stonewall » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:30 am

"My friends are teachers, my wife is a high school counselor and my son is a teacher. My mother was a teacher, my father a principal then an administrator. You sir do not understand education and the challenges. Our once fine educational system at all levels is being destroyed by partisan politics and just plain ignorance."

How does this preclude taking a closer look at the UNC systems spending priorities? And thank you for the insult...

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by bcoach » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:42 am

This is my single comment and I must tell you I am not affiliated with either party. You have the worse state legislature anyone could ever imagine. I also need to say this is not a political statement as much as it is a management statement.
As far as how the UNC system works that is not going to change.
My daughter and son in law are teachers in NC and I have all the respect in the world for them. There is not a snowballs chance in hell that I would do it. God love you teachers, your government sure doesn't.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by AppinVA » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:49 am

bcoach wrote:This is my single comment and I must tell you I am not affiliated with either party. You have the worse state legislature anyone could ever imagine. I also need to say this is not a political statement as much as it is a management statement.
As far as how the UNC system works that is not going to change.
My daughter and son in law are teachers in NC and I have all the respect in the world for them. There is not a snowballs chance in hell that I would do it. God love you teachers, your government sure doesn't.
I'm a member of Team Elephant, but even I see where teachers are getting screwed over royally in NC by the legislature to the point I'd have to consider how I cast my vote. Go to any school along the NC/VA border and see how many North Carolina tags there are in the teachers' lot. Then, go two counties north, and salaries go up another $8,000 from there.
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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:36 am

The question for all is whether a great education and a thinking, skilled society has warrant for significant public investment. The group providing the basis for the education model that the legislature is following is the Pope Foundation which is funded by a family that runs discount stores in rural Eastern NC. This foundation believes that the funding of UNC system gives all UNC Schools an unfair advantage over Wake Forest, Duke and all other private schools. At debate is an education only for those born into a wealthy family who can afford private k12 school and private University or should it be accessable for all who try to do well in school?

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:38 am

Ps, I believe that one can be conservative and support a robust investment in elementary and secondary education as the most significant economic investment that any society can have. I have a BSBA in Economics from AppState. Go AppState!!!

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Stonewall » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:01 pm

Now that we have shifted to K-12 ....the United States routinely trails its rival countries in performances on international exams despite being among the heaviest spenders on education. Number one in fact.
U.S. fourth-graders are 11th in the world in math in the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, a separate measure of nations against each other. Look it up .U.S. eighth-graders ranked ninth in math, according to those 2011 results.
The Program for International Student Assessment measurement found the United States ranked 31st in math literacy among 15-year-old students and below the international average. The same 2009 tests found the United States ranked 23rd in science among the same students. We aren't getting a good return on investment. I suggest that the money is there but it is not being allocated in the most effective way. Teachers could be paid a wage on average of about 30 percent more ,differentiated based upon performance. You would get better and more motivated teachers and that's the key.This would require reductions in state and local education bureaucratic overhead costs ,which of course is a direct assault on their power and influence. Anyway that's where my 35 years of work in the field, plus all of the requisite degrees have led me....well there , and the beach.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by AppinVA » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:15 pm

HighlandsApp wrote:Ps, I believe that one can be conservative and support a robust investment in elementary and secondary education as the most significant economic investment that any society can have. I have a BSBA in Economics from AppState. Go AppState!!!
Yes. Equality of opportunity means a solid investment in K-12 education for all. The states and divisions that wisely invest in schools wind up getting the greatest returns in tax base, good paying jobs, culture, etc. I'm against wasteful spending, and for getting the biggest bang for the bucks spent, but that's not what NC is doing. They're trying to get by on the cheap, and in time, they'll get what they're paying for. Just one Virginia educator's opinion.
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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by bcoach » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Damn I locked myself into one comment :( but you guys are bringing up very good points. Keep going.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:59 pm

Stonewall wrote:Now that we have shifted to K-12 ....the United States routinely trails its rival countries in performances on international exams despite being among the heaviest spenders on education. Number one in fact.
U.S. fourth-graders are 11th in the world in math in the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, a separate measure of nations against each other. Look it up .U.S. eighth-graders ranked ninth in math, according to those 2011 results.
The Program for International Student Assessment measurement found the United States ranked 31st in math literacy among 15-year-old students and below the international average. The same 2009 tests found the United States ranked 23rd in science among the same students. We aren't getting a good return on investment. I suggest that the money is there but it is not being allocated in the most effective way. Teachers could be paid a wage on average of about 30 percent more ,differentiated based upon performance. You would get better and more motivated teachers and that's the key.This would require reductions in state and local education bureaucratic overhead costs ,which of course is a direct assault on their power and influence. Anyway that's where my 35 years of work in the field, plus all of the requisite degrees have led me....well there , and the beach.
We are in no way far outspending anyone. I agree, that we need to reassess the way we teach. We do not trust teachers or principals to teach their students in the best manner for the child or class. Too many rules and the No Child LEft Behind created way too much standardized private testing.

Further, a good amount of our spending is spent on things that other countries don't use or have such as transporting children in school buses verses other countries that have extensive models of public transportation. The amount of spending on athletic facilities is huge (I do want to state that I am in favor of athletic spending as these activities keep kids focused, in school and out of trouble). Then, we waste huge amounts of money to private companies for the curriculum and text boos not to mention insane amounts for testing.

Here is some data regarding spending per country:

https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/educa ... ending.htm

When you look at post secondary combined we are through the roof. Although, interestingly as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product, were are below the developed world average.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Gnomeneer » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:16 pm

Why can we not accept the concept that there are high school students that don't belong in college? Should it not be the teacher's responsibility to weed out those that are not college prepared? We need welders, brick layers, hands on technicians............not more lawyers........and politicians.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by bcoach » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:08 am

Gnomeneer wrote:Why can we not accept the concept that there are high school students that don't belong in college? Should it not be the teacher's responsibility to weed out those that are not college prepared? We need welders, brick layers, hands on technicians............not more lawyers........and politicians.
We as a society have sent a message now for a very long time. If you don't go to college you are worthless. There are many kids who are wasting their time and someones money by going to college. We have a warped sense of worth in this country. To understand worth it would be helpful to wait till the next time your toilet overflows and can't be stopped then call an accountant or a lawyer. Which reminds me of another statement that makes me nuts. " You better straighten up or you are going to be flippin burgers." We happen to need people to flip burgers, at least for a little while longer anyway. There are tons of jobs we need more that some of the professions we so idolize. College is a a great thing no doubt about it, but not going is not necessarily a bad thing.

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Re: Funding - AppState is already cut to the bone and one of most efficient UNC schools

Unread post by Saint3333 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:26 am

As a former accountant that can fix a toilet as well I take offense to this statement ;-).

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