• Return on Investment

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:13 am**

I'm sure one of you guys either has this data or can get it. There is always talk about giving more to our athletics in order to generate more wins and championships. We have obviously gotten plenty of bang for our buck with football over the past several years but overall how do we rank against everyone else? You have to believe that Alabama would rank near the top of the list in terms or return on athletic budget. They spent a fortune but bring in a fortune as well and have the trophies to prove it. I guess I'd love to see (if possible) a stat showing the average or approximate athletic budget along with revenues along with major sports winning percentages. Hope that makes sense.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:13 am**

https://athleticdirectoru.com/articles/ ... nvestment/

This is older but it's going to be directionally accurate

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:56 am**

It would be great to see how that's changed. We were the lowest cost per win. I assume that's just football. We have incurred a huge amount of travel expenses since joining the Belt. I'd have to think that cost per win is easily over $1m now- if you are only talking football.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:45 am**

Those numbers were from FBS years I believe so it should be pretty accurate

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:22 am**

Not exactly what you are asking for, but there's plenty of data in the Knight-Newhouse database

For all athletics in 2021:
App State ---$33.2M in Revenue--$33.4M in Expenses
Football Spending was $9.7M
$13.6M (41.6%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$8.28M from Donors
$1.28M for Corporate Sponsors, Advertising, Licensing

UNC-Cheat---$101.86M in Revenue--$101.91M in Expenses
Football Spending was $30.2M
$7.6M (7%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$38.6M for Donors
$9.75M from Corporate Sponsors

Texas A&M---$161.8M in Revenue--$141,8M in Expenses ($20M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.6M
0% Student fees,
$47.77M from Donors
$14.38M from Corporate Sponsors

Alabama----$179.8M in Revenue--$170.1M in Expenses ($9.8M Profit)
Football Spending was $59.5M
0% Student Fees,
$39.6M from Donors
$14.06M from Corporate Sponsors

Georgia----$169M in Revenue----$124.1M in Expenses ($44.9M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.1M (but $48M in 2020)
$3.2M (2%) Student Fees,
$45.2M from Donors,
$11.5M from Corporate Sponsors

That's why every win against a P5 is huge (despite their record)

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs#!qui ... _institu-1

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:59 am**

WASU 93 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:22 am
Not exactly what you are asking for, but there's plenty of data in the Knight-Newhouse database

For all athletics in 2021:
App State ---$33.2M in Revenue--$33.4M in Expenses
Football Spending was $9.7M
$13.6M (41.6%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$8.28M from Donors
$1.28M for Corporate Sponsors, Advertising, Licensing

UNC-Cheat---$101.86M in Revenue--$101.91M in Expenses
Football Spending was $30.2M
$7.6M (7%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$38.6M for Donors
$9.75M from Corporate Sponsors

Texas A&M---$161.8M in Revenue--$141,8M in Expenses ($20M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.6M
0% Student fees,
$47.77M from Donors
$14.38M from Corporate Sponsors

Alabama----$179.8M in Revenue--$170.1M in Expenses ($9.8M Profit)
Football Spending was $59.5M
0% Student Fees,
$39.6M from Donors
$14.06M from Corporate Sponsors

Georgia----$169M in Revenue----$124.1M in Expenses ($44.9M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.1M (but $48M in 2020)
$3.2M (2%) Student Fees,
$45.2M from Donors,
$11.5M from Corporate Sponsors

That's why every win against a P5 is huge (despite their record)

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs#!qui ... _institu-1

That's great information. So the rest of the revenue comes from ticket sales and any conference TV money? I am going to assume that we didn't make a whole lot from the ECU and Miami games. Any good game that only requires a day bus trip is a win. Did the team spend the night in Miami? That had to be costly. I agree, any P5 win is huge but ultimately the 35k plus home games with increased ticket costs are what helps tremendously.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:24 am**

We talk a lot about corporate sponsors and the difficulty of attracting them because of our location. Actually though, our deficit is in the Donor category. That's a tough look in the mirror for us fans.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:07 am**

That's unreal how much dependency there is for student fees to keep athletics afloat. Shows you what a lucrative TV contract is worth. I wonder how much we spend flying teams to go play games (many in virtually empty venues)? These really aren't numbers a reasonable person would be happy seeing.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:35 pm**

There is a reason we are at the G5 level and the majority of the reason is financially. I would guess that if you had compared us to other G5 schools you would see a similar pattern financially. By and large, it’s the value of the tv deals that separates us as well as the CFP $, which is mostly tv $ as well. We are finally fully funding all our sports, which has just happened. This is one of the reasons that it’s important for us (SunBelt) to continue to punch up, so our Commish can get a $5M/team contract…. or more. I thought there was a chance during the recent negotiations, that we might get a contract with a streaming service as well. We need more $$$!

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:48 pm**

WASU 93 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:22 am
Not exactly what you are asking for, but there's plenty of data in the Knight-Newhouse database

For all athletics in 2021:
App State ---$33.2M in Revenue--$33.4M in Expenses
Football Spending was $9.7M
$13.6M (41.6%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$8.28M from Donors
$1.28M for Corporate Sponsors, Advertising, Licensing

UNC-Cheat---$101.86M in Revenue--$101.91M in Expenses
Football Spending was $30.2M
$7.6M (7%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$38.6M for Donors
$9.75M from Corporate Sponsors

Texas A&M---$161.8M in Revenue--$141,8M in Expenses ($20M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.6M
0% Student fees,
$47.77M from Donors
$14.38M from Corporate Sponsors

Alabama----$179.8M in Revenue--$170.1M in Expenses ($9.8M Profit)
Football Spending was $59.5M
0% Student Fees,
$39.6M from Donors
$14.06M from Corporate Sponsors

Georgia----$169M in Revenue----$124.1M in Expenses ($44.9M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.1M (but $48M in 2020)
$3.2M (2%) Student Fees,
$45.2M from Donors,
$11.5M from Corporate Sponsors

That's why every win against a P5 is huge (despite their record)

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs#!qui ... _institu-1

Noticed these numbers are from pre-current SBC structure. How much would you guess the expenses drop and revenue goes up now with a more regionally aligned conference?

Football plane trips 2021 - 4
Football plane trips 2022 - 2
Football plane trips 2023 - 2
Football plane trips 2024 - Likely just the one for whatever SBC West team we play on the road.

I would think cost for other sports would drop as well not having to fly as much. Also more revenue as away fans from Huntington, Harrisonburg, and Norfolk are more likely to attend games in Boone.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:11 pm**

Those P5 $1m pay days (and wins) are great but what is the cost to fly our team/hotel and meals to Texas? Do we net half of the game check? I agree, the regioanlized conference should be a huge boost to our finances. Absolutely stupid for any conference, especially a G5 to be so spread out.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:54 pm**

Another thing to consider is YC membership. NCAA and the networks are interested in booster club participation as club members are more likely to travel to away games (including bowls) as well as pack the house for home games.

We've seen the impact our fanbase has in terms of traveling for bowl games. My hope is that YC continues to grow; only good things can come from it.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:01 pm**

bigdaddyg wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:07 am
That's unreal how much dependency there is for student fees to keep athletics afloat. Shows you what a lucrative TV contract is worth. I wonder how much we spend flying teams to go play games (many in virtually empty venues)? These really aren't numbers a reasonable person would be happy seeing.

And we are one of the lowest in Sun Belt. It's the way G5 programs survive.

While I don't disagree it shouldn't be that high, every increase is voted on by students (or their representatives that have been voted in to office) and agreed upon as soon as they sign their acceptance letter.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:22 pm**

AppStateNews wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:01 pm

bigdaddyg wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:07 am
That's unreal how much dependency there is for student fees to keep athletics afloat. Shows you what a lucrative TV contract is worth. I wonder how much we spend flying teams to go play games (many in virtually empty venues)? These really aren't numbers a reasonable person would be happy seeing.
And we are one of the lowest in Sun Belt. It's the way G5 programs survive.

While I don't disagree it shouldn't be that high, every increase is voted on by students (or their representatives that have been voted in to office) and agreed upon as soon as they sign their acceptance letter.

UNCC (as they are listed in the Knight report University of NC at Charlotte) gets 57% of their athletic budget from student fees $21.2M of their $37M budget

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:23 pm**

The Student athletic fees have been a bargain for AppState Students. The exposure this football team has generated for AppState and their graduates has been incredible. I would venture to say probably more bang for the buck than the actual education received from tuition. HR people know APPSTATE. That is branding.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:46 pm**

/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:48 pm

WASU 93 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:22 am
Not exactly what you are asking for, but there's plenty of data in the Knight-Newhouse database

For all athletics in 2021:
App State ---$33.2M in Revenue--$33.4M in Expenses
Football Spending was $9.7M
$13.6M (41.6%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$8.28M from Donors
$1.28M for Corporate Sponsors, Advertising, Licensing

UNC-Cheat---$101.86M in Revenue--$101.91M in Expenses
Football Spending was $30.2M
$7.6M (7%) of Revenue comes from student fees
$38.6M for Donors
$9.75M from Corporate Sponsors

Texas A&M---$161.8M in Revenue--$141,8M in Expenses ($20M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.6M
0% Student fees,
$47.77M from Donors
$14.38M from Corporate Sponsors

Alabama----$179.8M in Revenue--$170.1M in Expenses ($9.8M Profit)
Football Spending was $59.5M
0% Student Fees,
$39.6M from Donors
$14.06M from Corporate Sponsors

Georgia----$169M in Revenue----$124.1M in Expenses ($44.9M Profit)
Football Spending was $36.1M (but $48M in 2020)
$3.2M (2%) Student Fees,
$45.2M from Donors,
$11.5M from Corporate Sponsors

That's why every win against a P5 is huge (despite their record)

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs#!qui ... _institu-1
Noticed these numbers are from pre-current SBC structure. How much would you guess the expenses drop and revenue goes up now with a more regionally aligned conference?

Football plane trips 2021 - 4
Football plane trips 2022 - 2
Football plane trips 2023 - 2
Football plane trips 2024 - Likely just the one for whatever SBC West team we play on the road.

I would think cost for other sports would drop as well not having to fly as much. Also more revenue as away fans from Huntington, Harrisonburg, and Norfolk are more likely to attend games in Boone.

In the big picture, ticket sales are important, but less revenue than student fee. We had $930,000 for all sports in 2021, which is 3% of income. That looks like that was the COVID year (20-21 academic year).
In 2020, we had $4.01M in ticket sales, which is 11% of the overall revenue .

(My guess is that we will boost it to $4.5M-$4.7M in 2022-3 with the raised single game prices and the near sellouts for 7 football games)

For a MBB game, if we draw 2500 and assume that 500 are students, we are gaining $30K to $40K in revenue at $10 child /$20 adult tickets. Factor in promos and giveaways and we may be at $25,000 per game. 17 Home Games this year is $425K in possible ticket revenue (and that's a high estimate). We probably flew to UC Santa Barbara (played in AZ), UL Monroe (bussed to South Al and flew home), and flew to Southern Miss (played on the same weekend as a road game at Marshall). The women probably flew to Michigan, Texas State and Troy (played two days after a road game at ODU). Both Men and Women would fly to the tourney in Pensacola in all likelihood.

So, football is bringing in 80%+ of the ticket revenue. I don't think 2 chartered plane flights a year is an outlier.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:53 pm**

mike87 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:24 am
We talk a lot about corporate sponsors and the difficulty of attracting them because of our location. Actually though, our deficit is in the Donor category. That's a tough look in the mirror for us fans.

Let's look in the mirror:
We can do better with donations, but we are middle of the road at worst. Keep in mind that a large number of our alumni are educators (not the highest earners). ECU is the one school that really distances itself from us, and it is a traditionally larger school + is a research institution with a Medical School. Theoretically, their alumni may have deeper pockets. Also ahead of us is UNCC (another research school with a history of business grads/architects/and engineers) and Louisiana-Lafayette.
Again, you can often make stats tell the story you want them to and there is a much deeper dive to analyze this, but I don't know that we are behind in donors/donations. ECU has a head start on us, but they seem to be the program to chase in that regards.

APP STATE (18,555 undergrad students/517 athletes) $3.91M in donors in 2019-20, ($13.27M in Student Fees-38%, $6.56M in Government/Institutional Support-19% of the budget). $4.01M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--History, Health, Education)

Coastal Carolina (9,790 undergrad students/486 athletes) -- $1M in donors in 2019-20, ($5.31M in Student Fees-13%, $31.37M in Government/Institutional Support-74% of their budget). They had $770K in ticket sales in 2019-2020--less than 1/5 of our ticket sales
(Top 3 Majors--Business Admin., Speech Communication, Marketing)

Georgia Southern (23,527 undergrad students/424 athletes)--$2.94M in donations (10% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($9M in Student Fees-31%, $9.62M in Gov./Institutional Support 33% of their budget) $1.6M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Business Admin., Health Professions, Engineering)

East Carolina (22,463 undergrad students/407 athletes)--$11.65M in donations (21% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($15.58M in Student Fees-28%, $14.88M in Gov./Institutional Support 27% of their budget) $4.77M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Business, Health, Engineering + NC Research Institution)

UNCC (24,116 undergrad students/443 athletes)--$5.33M in donations (13% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($21.33M in Student Fees-52%, $5.73M in Gov./Institutional Support 14% of their budget) $1.86M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Business Mgt., Health Professions, CIS + NC Research Institution)

Southern Miss (10,633 undergrad students/366 athletes)--$3.24M in donations (13% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($8.36M in Student Fees-33%, $4.05M in Gov./Institutional Support 16% of their budget) $1.95M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Nursing, Business Admin., Psychology)

Louisiana-Lafayette (13,700/406 athletes) --$4.97M in donations (16% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($570K in Student Fees-2%, $18.12M in Gov./Institutional Support 60% of their budget) $1.54M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Health Professions, Business Management, Liberal Arts)

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:46 am**

Someone posted a while back an estimate of what % of alumni contribute. That is what interest me. If we had a higher percentage, even if giving $100 a year would significantly change our state.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:25 am**

WASU 93 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:53 pm

mike87 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:24 am
We talk a lot about corporate sponsors and the difficulty of attracting them because of our location. Actually though, our deficit is in the Donor category. That's a tough look in the mirror for us fans.
Let's look in the mirror:
We can do better with donations, but we are middle of the road at worst. Keep in mind that a large number of our alumni are educators (not the highest earners). ECU is the one school that really distances itself from us, and it is a traditionally larger school + is a research institution with a Medical School. Theoretically, their alumni may have deeper pockets. Also ahead of us is UNCC (another research school with a history of business grads/architects/and engineers) and Louisiana-Lafayette.
Again, you can often make stats tell the story you want them to and there is a much deeper dive to analyze this, but I don't know that we are behind in donors/donations. ECU has a head start on us, but they seem to be the program to chase in that regards.

APP STATE (18,555 undergrad students/517 athletes) $3.91M in donors in 2019-20, ($13.27M in Student Fees-38%, $6.56M in Government/Institutional Support-19% of the budget). $4.01M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--History, Health, Education)

Coastal Carolina (9,790 undergrad students/486 athletes) -- $1M in donors in 2019-20, ($5.31M in Student Fees-13%, $31.37M in Government/Institutional Support-74% of their budget). They had $770K in ticket sales in 2019-2020--less than 1/5 of our ticket sales
(Top 3 Majors--Business Admin., Speech Communication, Marketing)

Georgia Southern (23,527 undergrad students/424 athletes)--$2.94M in donations (10% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($9M in Student Fees-31%, $9.62M in Gov./Institutional Support 33% of their budget) $1.6M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Business Admin., Health Professions, Engineering)

East Carolina (22,463 undergrad students/407 athletes)--$11.65M in donations (21% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($15.58M in Student Fees-28%, $14.88M in Gov./Institutional Support 27% of their budget) $4.77M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Business, Health, Engineering + NC Research Institution)

UNCC (24,116 undergrad students/443 athletes)--$5.33M in donations (13% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($21.33M in Student Fees-52%, $5.73M in Gov./Institutional Support 14% of their budget) $1.86M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Business Mgt., Health Professions, CIS + NC Research Institution)

Southern Miss (10,633 undergrad students/366 athletes)--$3.24M in donations (13% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($8.36M in Student Fees-33%, $4.05M in Gov./Institutional Support 16% of their budget) $1.95M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Nursing, Business Admin., Psychology)

Louisiana-Lafayette (13,700/406 athletes) --$4.97M in donations (16% of revenue)= 2019-20 ($570K in Student Fees-2%, $18.12M in Gov./Institutional Support 60% of their budget) $1.54M in ticket sales in 2019-2020
(Top 3 Majors--Health Professions, Business Management, Liberal Arts)

A lot of if's and buts. As Bamboo said, a higher % of Alumni giving small amounts of money would go a long way. The ones that are engaged are engaged but the ones that aren't...they aren't at all and many are wearing UNC caps. We fail the grade as donors.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:51 pm**

BambooRdApp wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:46 am
Someone posted a while back an estimate of what % of alumni contribute. That is what interest me. If we had a higher percentage, even if giving $100 a year would significantly change our state.

We have 142000 living graduates.

if 1% more gave $100, we would gain $142,000
If 5% more gave $100 (which is 7100 more members, effective tripling the Yosef Club), we would gain $710.000.
That's not really going to add much to a $33M budget (2.1%)

Per the official website: Yosef Club memberships more than doubled from 2021 to 2022, with a record total of 9,348 Yosef Club donors last year. That included 5,383 Student Yosef Club members, another record-shattering mark. Even when only accounting for non-student memberships, the Yosef Club grew by 16% year over year.

So, even with season tickets selling out, we had 4,000 non-student Yosef Club Members

Truthfully, it would be easier to hire someone to bring $2-$3M in corporate sponsors or find a big donor.

All of it makes a difference, but $100 members really aren't going to move the needle.. They would be appreciated and we need to grow our base. But.....

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