This would be Very Bad for AppState and UNC System

[ASUMountaineer]

If App State decided to simply maintain its beautiful campus instead of constantly building new "stuff", they would be able to operate at a significantly lower cost.

I'm not against eliminating departments that do not help students find jobs upon graduation. If you graduate from App State (Walker COB, baby!) with an accounting degree, you'll get a job. I promise. If you graduate with a sociology degree, I hope you have good connections in your hometown that need a good nanny (generally speaking, of course.)

In principal, I'm 100% against gov't waste. Many people say they are but they won't support actual measures that eliminate it.

If you looked at what each school in the university system actually contributed vs. what they cost, I'm sure there would be several colleges that simply need to be shut down. Of course, I wouldn't be disappointed in the least.

With App State, I very much doubt there is a negative impact on the state. The economy in Boone is solely reliant on the school (which I think is great). If App State is currently spending way too much money, I wouldn't be surprised. I'll bet if some processes were streamlined you could eliminate plenty of jobs on campus.

Like everyone here, I hope this doesn't hurt App State because, trying to remain objective, I think it is a tremendous plus for the state. Now, UNC Pembroke? UNC Elizabethton? NC A&T? Are they worth having open and operating? I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't.

Who do you recommend conduct the reviews to determine if the university system contributes more than what it costs, and which processes can be streamlined? It's easy to call for such a review, a lot tougher to actually get a review started.

[ASUMountaineer]

My degree is one that is practical in that it opens doors directly to jobs. I am a practical person so I prefer that, but college is not just about getting a job. It is also about learning about the world around you. Those less "pratical" degrees are needed on campuses to help out in the well-rounded nature of the education on any campus.

As far as UNC-P. I realize the average student enrolling there is not at the same level as some of the other colleges in the state. Those students need a chance as well, and to be honest I have been very impressed with the programs I have worked with at UNC-P. They do a lot with what they have in resources. And if some of these schools have a high drop-out rate. Well, I am ok with that. Better to give the students a chance than not.

We could shut down every school in the state and have one or two big universities in the state. I would not prefer that. I say share the wealth around the state. What does the extreme west have to replace WCU? What does the Pembroke area have to replace UNC-P? Even if you keep a campus open but cut many programs the school is not viable. A physics major is not required to have a Chem or Bio major, but one does need some physics in either degree as just one example.

I am not saying there is no waste in state gov't. But that waste may actually not be waste but the money for someone to have a job-a job that puts money back in the economy by spending the income in a variety of ways.

I am a practical person so I prefer that, but college is not just about getting a job. It is also about learning about the world around you. Those less "pratical" degrees are needed on campuses to help out in the well-rounded nature of the education on any campus.

So how do kids that don't want to go to college (or are unable) learn about the world around them? If you want to go to college because you want to learn about the world around you, don't worry. You can.... without taking on tens of thousands of dollars in debt for inflated tuition for a degree that won't help you pay it off.

Also, please explain why less practical degrees are needed on tax-payer funded campuses. Needed is a strong word and I'll be you can't find an economical answer to that statement.

Private school? Sure. Get whatever degree you want. I have no issues with that. But if you're using public money, it better clearly help the public.

Do you have quantifiable data that shows "less practical degrees" are not needed on taxpayer-funded campuses, and that such degrees do not benefit the public? I honestly get what you're saying, but to effectuate any change, you must have objective and quantifiable data.

[NewApp]

To asu66. Chuck, so at least one other MMB'er is perceived to lack a bit of tact besides me.

On a serious note, schools like Pembroke, Elizabeth City State, et al have their niche which can't be accurately or fairly measured by how many graduates find credible jobs right off the bat. They are generally much less expensive than schools like UNC, NC State, the private schools, and yes, even our ASU.
Many kids, especially minorities and others from impoverished families wouldn't be able to attend a college or university if those type schools didn't exist. To sum it up, a student can get a good or even great education at any school if they take their education seriously enough.

[NewApp]

My degree is one that is practical in that it opens doors directly to jobs. I am a practical person so I prefer that, but college is not just about getting a job. It is also about learning about the world around you. Those less "pratical" degrees are needed on campuses to help out in the well-rounded nature of the education on any campus.

Agreed. Few points here.

1) The value of a college education to the public isn't just to train the future workforce; it's also to provide a more educated and critical citizenry that can hold its institutions accountable.

2) People who criticize liberal arts education frequently cite the "what job will it get you out of college?" question. But even in terms of career preparation, that's only part of the issue (and arguably not the biggest part). Industries change and evolve. Your education shouldn't just prepare you for a job right out of college (though certainly there's great value in that); it should prepare you for a career. That means critical thinking skills, adaptability, a well-rounded base of knowledge, etc. And I believe studies have found (don't have the links immediately handy) that a liberal arts education is actually more valuable at preparing people to be lifelong learners than a specialized education, which is why many companies actually prefer people with those degrees.

3) Regardless of one's personal view of liberal arts education, it is certainly a factor in why UNC system universities rank so highly in national rankings. If you de-emphasize liberal arts, those rankings are going to drop. And if those rankings drop, the UNC system is no longer the draw that it has long been for businesses and professionals looking to locate or relocate in NC, which could damage the state's economy long-term.

EAH, your first paragraph sums it up nicely from my POV. RP.

[wataugan03]

All the big banks, consulting firms, and other businesses are perfectly happy hiring Ivy League graduates with degrees in history and sociology. They just teach them as they go and deal with it as an operating cost. It does seem that employers a little lower down the train have become less willing to train people who don't have a background or education in their field. But in part, they are less willing because the state is sending them so many students degrees that are tailored to certain jobs. I wonder if we should see that as an unearned subsidy for private business. Maybe the role of public education should be to foster more general analytical skills (an understanding of reasoning, logic, statistics, math, etc.), a broad cultural understanding (foreign languages, anthropology, sociology), and a sense of ethics and wisdom (literature, philosophy, religion). That might be the type of education that creates the kind of people that we want to lead us in the future.

Maybe if the market place wants finance majors so badly it will find a way to teach people those technical skills itself. Maybe public education should seek to foster things that are desirable for the community, that the market lacks incentive to produce.

(That said, I think the state bears a paternalistic responsibility to educate people at a price that makes economic sense. We are putting way too many teenagers into too much debt for an education that isn't going to help them pay that debt off.)

[NewApp]

All the big banks, consulting firms, and other businesses are perfectly happy hiring Ivy League graduates with degrees in history and sociology. They just teach them as they go and deal with it as an operating cost. It does seem that employers a little lower down the train have become less willing to train people who don't have a background or education in their field. But in part, they are less willing because the state is sending them so many students degrees that are tailored to certain jobs. I wonder if we should see that as an unearned subsidy for private business. Maybe the role of public education should be to foster more general analytical skills (an understanding of reasoning, logic, statistics, math, etc.), a broad cultural understanding (foreign languages, anthropology, sociology), and a sense of ethics and wisdom (literature, philosophy, religion). That might be the type of education that creates the kind of people that we want to lead us in the future.

Maybe if the market place wants finance majors so badly it will find a way to teach people those technical skills itself. Maybe public education should seek to foster things that are desirable for the community, that the market lacks incentive to produce.

(That said, I think the state bears a paternalistic responsibility to educate people at a price that makes economic sense. We are putting way too many teenagers into too much debt for an education that isn't going to help them pay that debt off.)

Most kids debt is necessary, but I've seen too many students driving relatively high to high dollar cars, partying and staying in high rent housing who are racking up thousands in college debt.
I feel for the future of those students as well as their parents who will have those kids living with them for a long time while they work their way into a credible job and on their feet.
College costs are rising constantly but so is the lifestyle of today's college student. They could live reasonably while in college if they just cut back on the frills.

[App1990]

There is a difference between 'training' and 'education'. Community colleges are suppose to train people for jobs, and in the past, employers trained their new hires. Universities are NOT suppose to only train people for a specific job. It's mission is more complex and more important. Universities are suppose to provide people with the knowledge and skills to succeed throughout their life and to be an contributing part of their community and society. This is done by providing the skills to understand how the world works, how people work, how to interact with people/cultures, and how find their place in the world. Bigger than a specific job, the university is suppose to provide general skills are critical for someone to succeed in an ever-changing social/economic landscape. People do not keep their same job or career their same lives. They will face change, and sometimes big changes. Often for reasons outside their control, and often without much warning. Those with a better grasp of how things work will be better equipped to land on their feet. And this is an INVESTMENT, and all the legitimate research (not Pope Center) clearly shows it is a great investment. Even paying 100% of someone's college education is repaid many times over that person's lifetime. College graduates save the government/society much more than the cost of their education. They use the criminal justice system less. They use the healthcare system less. They draw upon public support less. And they earn much more and pay more in taxes. They also are better informed citizens and generally pass these positives to their kids. The old saying is true--education is not nearly as expensive as NOT educating our kids.

And it is pretty ignorant and arrogant to judge courses, degrees and disciplines from the outside. Just because you can't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And truth is, most of the value from a college degree is not something you can easily see or measure. The real value is not from a single course or discipline. It is the combination of courses from different areas. You can't separate english from business. You can't separate sociology from marketing (at least good marketing). You can't separate geography from development. And even seemingly 'soft' courses (e.g., women's studies) can help entrepreneurs see how a new service or product can fill a social/economic need for half of the market.

The problem is that too many people, including Pope, have simplistic views of what education is, and what higher education is. They don't see that higher education is a public good. It isn't only about what it does for the graduate, it is what it does for the state and beyond. Research indicates the public benefits of a person getting a college education is much larger than the benefits for that individual. Our state constitution understood this, but somehow we have forgotten our way on education. Ironically, while we cut education and dismantle public higher education, the rest of the world is increasing their public investment in education and R&D. Every year we fall further behind because we are giving up on the very thing that led to our past success--public universities and public research. It hasn't gotten much attention but the UNC system is being raided by other states. The best faculty and huge amounts of research activity (funding and jobs) are being poached by other states that see how poorly things are at UNC campuses. The UNC system has long been one of the best, but it is in decline. It takes many decades to build such a system, but it only takes a few years to dismantle it.

PS: It is strange that business complain that graduates don't have the skills they need. As mentioned, the university is not suppose to train graduates for a specific job, but further, businesses have long trained their own new hires. I recall my friends graduating from App with a banking degree. They would immediate go off to a 6-12 month training period at Wachovia, First Union, etc. Now of course, they'd like to shift their training costs onto the university and taxpayer, but that is not how is should work.

Regarding Pope, everyone in education and higher education knows that Pope is no friend to public higher education. He has stated many times his disregard and even hate for the UNC system. Heck, the Pope center works tirelessly to undermine the system and the public's trust in the system, partly with 'papers' that are complete jokes. If he is appointed president, the fireworks will be fun to watch, but it will signal the end of a highly respected institution. App certainly will be told to retreat back to its place as an undergraduate teaching college. For the system and App, it will be tough to recover from the damage of the past 8 years, but it could be done. If Pope takes over, it is over. Done. Put a fork in it. And NC will suffer tremendously economically. Hello Mississippi.

[NewApp]

There is a difference between 'training' and 'education'. Community colleges are suppose to train people for jobs, and in the past, employers trained their new hires. Universities are NOT suppose to only train people for a specific job. It's mission is more complex and more important. Universities are suppose to provide people with the knowledge and skills to succeed throughout their life and to be an contributing part of their community and society. This is done by providing the skills to understand how the world works, how people work, how to interact with people/cultures, and how find their place in the world. Bigger than a specific job, the university is suppose to provide general skills are critical for someone to succeed in an ever-changing social/economic landscape. People do not keep their same job or career their same lives. They will face change, and sometimes big changes. Often for reasons outside their control, and often without much warning. Those with a better grasp of how things work will be better equipped to land on their feet. And this is an INVESTMENT, and all the legitimate research (not Pope Center) clearly shows it is a great investment. Even paying 100% of someone's college education is repaid many times over that person's lifetime. College graduates save the government/society much more than the cost of their education. They use the criminal justice system less. They use the healthcare system less. They draw upon public support less. And they earn much more and pay more in taxes. They also are better informed citizens and generally pass these positives to their kids. The old saying is true--education is not nearly as expensive as NOT educating our kids.

And it is pretty ignorant and arrogant to judge courses, degrees and disciplines from the outside. Just because you can't see the value, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And truth is, most of the value from a college degree is not something you can easily see or measure. The real value is not from a single course or discipline. It is the combination of courses from different areas. You can't separate english from business. You can't separate sociology from marketing (at least good marketing). You can't separate geography from development. And even seemingly 'soft' courses (e.g., women's studies) can help entrepreneurs see how a new service or product can fill a social/economic need for half of the market.

The problem is that too many people, including Pope, have simplistic views of what education is, and what higher education is. They don't see that higher education is a public good. It isn't only about what it does for the graduate, it is what it does for the state and beyond. Research indicates the public benefits of a person getting a college education is much larger than the benefits for that individual. Our state constitution understood this, but somehow we have forgotten our way on education. Ironically, while we cut education and dismantle public higher education, the rest of the world is increasing their public investment in education and R&D. Every year we fall further behind because we are giving up on the very thing that led to our past success--public universities and public research. It hasn't gotten much attention but the UNC system is being raided by other states. The best faculty and huge amounts of research activity (funding and jobs) are being poached by other states that see how poorly things are at UNC campuses. The UNC system has long been one of the best, but it is in decline. It takes many decades to build such a system, but it only takes a few years to dismantle it.

PS: It is strange that business complain that graduates don't have the skills they need. As mentioned, the university is not suppose to train graduates for a specific job, but further, businesses have long trained their own new hires. I recall my friends graduating from App with a banking degree. They would immediate go off to a 6-12 month training period at Wachovia, First Union, etc. Now of course, they'd like to shift their training costs onto the university and taxpayer, but that is not how is should work.

Regarding Pope, everyone in education and higher education knows that Pope is no friend to public higher education. He has stated many times his disregard and even hate for the UNC system. Heck, the Pope center works tirelessly to undermine the system and the public's trust in the system, partly with 'papers' that are complete jokes. If he is appointed president, the fireworks will be fun to watch, but it will signal the end of a highly respected institution. App certainly will be told to retreat back to its place as an undergraduate teaching college. For the system and App, it will be tough to recover from the damage of the past 8 years, but it could be done. If Pope takes over, it is over. Done. Put a fork in it. And NC will suffer tremendously economically. Hello Mississippi.

Is there a way to give you 10 RP's for that post? Not only, but emphatically about Art Pope. Following him has made me shift a little further left in my political views. I take that back, a lot to the left.

[clemmonsapp]

But wait - the ads for our new Senator said he and the General Assembly were champions of our education system.

Are you implying that the 70 million he spent on his campaign obfuscated his actual impact on our K-12 and University system!

It is actually the Affordable Care Act that has hurt our schools. Just ask the substitute teacher from B-F down east.

I am shocked by your propaganda about good teachers and faculty leaving the system because of drastic budget cuts and no pay increases for multiple years. This is only backed up by meager facts.

Folks - we get what we vote for. The GA put in a pay raise for teachers to blunt the uproar over their decimation of school budgets and then ran on being champions of education. While school systems can't even buy textbooks. The voters bought it because of the money poured into ads.

We are governed by people who only value what they did (my degree is the only worthwhile one) or what brings them profit (I went to a private school or already have a degree, why should I pay for a system for others). The rural and poor are convinced to vote for social issues through fear and kill themselves economically and educationally.

I am a fiscal conservative, but I still believe that education is (or was) the differentiator that made North Carolina and the US an economic success. That along with our progressive cities are the only reason we are rebounding (all-be-it much more slowly than the rest of the country) from the near depression. This GA has declared war on both. I simply do not understand why you would gut your success stories rather than attempt to build on them.

[HighlandsApp]

Great well stated opinions, but lets all agree to keep this discussion centered on AppState having the necessary funding and UNC Board of Governor's support to continue to grow in reputation and quality as a Comprehensive Regional University.

It is a thin wire to walk to keep this thread from being tossed from AppState General Discussion threads to the closed Political File. Lets keep this topic out in the open so that it can be closely followed.

Does anyone have contact with the two AppState grads that are on The UNC BOG?

[NewApp]

"Folks - we get what we vote for. The GA put in a pay raise for teachers to blunt the uproar over their decimation of school budgets and then ran on being champions of education. While school systems can't even buy textbooks. The voters bought it because of the money poured into ads."

Exactly, but may be more so than you can imagine. The pay raises at the bottom of the pay scale is commendable, but the insidious purpose was to force out the older teachers in order to cut retirement costs and payroll expenses. I can't cite you facts about how many teachers left the profession, but I can certainly name you many examples of those who have over the last few years and most importantly last year. The most humorous (in some ways) example was a young couple who were considered to be among the best best in the profession. They had just had their second child and didn't want to raise their kids with the standard of living that the present pay scale affords. Believe it or not, they have started a micro brewery and the future looks bright. Demand has already exceeded expectations. Believe me they pondered long and hard before making the leap.

This couple is not the only example I could cite.

[HighlandsApp]

A good education was once believed by all to be right that was provided by communities for the betterment and economic growth of the community and society. This is the premise that Appalachian was founded on in 1889. When new towns popped up across the country a school house and the hiring of a teacher was seen as the most important key stone to a town and often came before the hiring of a town preacher or doctor.

Does the current Board of Governor's not think that the UNC system is meeting the needs of the State? Should out of state students not be allowed as they consume resources paid for by the state even though they pay higher tuition. Why does the Legislature want to shut down funding for the North Carolina Research Campus that AppState is heavily involved with in Kannapolis? If the
Research Triangle Park not been built 40 years ago would Raleigh be the city that it is today?

The 227,000 students currently enrolled in the UNC System are THE most important economic investment in the state.

[appstatehokie]

All the big banks, consulting firms, and other businesses are perfectly happy hiring Ivy League graduates with degrees in history and sociology. They just teach them as they go and deal with it as an operating cost. It does seem that employers a little lower down the train have become less willing to train people who don't have a background or education in their field. But in part, they are less willing because the state is sending them so many students degrees that are tailored to certain jobs. I wonder if we should see that as an unearned subsidy for private business. Maybe the role of public education should be to foster more general analytical skills (an understanding of reasoning, logic, statistics, math, etc.), a broad cultural understanding (foreign languages, anthropology, sociology), and a sense of ethics and wisdom (literature, philosophy, religion). That might be the type of education that creates the kind of people that we want to lead us in the future.

Maybe if the market place wants finance majors so badly it will find a way to teach people those technical skills itself. Maybe public education should seek to foster things that are desirable for the community, that the market lacks incentive to produce.

(That said, I think the state bears a paternalistic responsibility to educate people at a price that makes economic sense. We are putting way too many teenagers into too much debt for an education that isn't going to help them pay that debt off.)

Most kids debt is necessary, but I've seen too many students driving relatively high to high dollar cars, partying and staying in high rent housing who are racking up thousands in college debt.
I feel for the future of those students as well as their parents who will have those kids living with them for a long time while they work their way into a credible job and on their feet.
College costs are rising constantly but so is the lifestyle of today's college student. They could live reasonably while in college if they just cut back on the frills.

As a senior at App who is about to have about 150,000k in debt for optometry school I completely agree with this, I save a lot of money by living in cheaper housing and just keeping a budget, I know very few students who do this and don't realize how much money it saves.

[asutrnr81]

This whole deal is to create a state run by the ogliarchs and the "middle class" if we even have one anymore will suffer greatly.

Art Pope and "his" people are very dangerous for us all....the middle class and the ogliarchs.

[NewApp]

All the big banks, consulting firms, and other businesses are perfectly happy hiring Ivy League graduates with degrees in history and sociology. They just teach them as they go and deal with it as an operating cost. It does seem that employers a little lower down the train have become less willing to train people who don't have a background or education in their field. But in part, they are less willing because the state is sending them so many students degrees that are tailored to certain jobs. I wonder if we should see that as an unearned subsidy for private business. Maybe the role of public education should be to foster more general analytical skills (an understanding of reasoning, logic, statistics, math, etc.), a broad cultural understanding (foreign languages, anthropology, sociology), and a sense of ethics and wisdom (literature, philosophy, religion). That might be the type of education that creates the kind of people that we want to lead us in the future.

Maybe if the market place wants finance majors so badly it will find a way to teach people those technical skills itself. Maybe public education should seek to foster things that are desirable for the community, that the market lacks incentive to produce.

(That said, I think the state bears a paternalistic responsibility to educate people at a price that makes economic sense. We are putting way too many teenagers into too much debt for an education that isn't going to help them pay that debt off.)

Most kids debt is necessary, but I've seen too many students driving relatively high to high dollar cars, partying and staying in high rent housing who are racking up thousands in college debt.
I feel for the future of those students as well as their parents who will have those kids living with them for a long time while they work their way into a credible job and on their feet.
College costs are rising constantly but so is the lifestyle of today's college student. They could live reasonably while in college if they just cut back on the frills.

As a senior at App who is about to have about 150,000k in debt for optometry school I completely agree with this, I save a lot of money by living in cheaper housing and just keeping a budget, I know very few students who do this and don't realize how much money it saves.

I replied to your message box that I envy you. You will pay off that debt in short order after you get into optometry. Smart thing to do.

[asutrnr81]

Based on a conversation I had with a person in the admissions office the average SAT score for the students accepted to ASU this week is 1197 (Reading and Math) and a 27 on ACT.


Sounds like we have a pretty bright group coming in.....and some kids who will need to pursue their dreams at "other" schools or the CC.

One other issue that will probably go unnoticed here is that "IF" the UNC system reduces it's size and offerings is will allow the private schools in our state to increase the tuition as there will be less incentive to scholarship students which would add more debt to would-be students and families.....AGAIN widening the gap between the haves and have nots......and limiting upward mobility.......why would any business want to relocate to NC in this climate.

[NewApp]

Based on a conversation I had with a person in the admissions office the average SAT score for the students accepted to ASU this week is 1197 (Reading and Math) and a 27 on ACT.


Sounds like we have a pretty bright group coming in.....and some kids who will need to pursue their dreams at "other" schools or the CC.

One other issue that will probably go unnoticed here is that "IF" the UNC system reduces it's size and offerings is will allow the private schools in our state to increase the tuition as there will be less incentive to scholarship students which would add more debt to would-be students and families.....AGAIN widening the gap between the haves and have nots......and limiting upward mobility.......why would any business want to relocate to NC in this climate.

Only because we are not the only state doing that. Sadly.

[newtoasu]

The new meme in higher educations is that “We've gone from being state-supported, to state-assisted, and now we're just state-located.”

[bcoach]

This is all a matter of priorities. If funding education were a priority to the citizens of NC or any other state, education would be well funded. It just is not a priority.

[NewApp]

This is all a matter of priorities. If funding education were a priority to the citizens of NC or any other state, education would be well funded. It just is not a priority.

At one time, North Carolina was well known for its quality system of state supported colleges and universities. Now, not so much and to boot we are the lowest paying of public school teachers in the Union.