My legitimate concern: Miami exposed a huge weakness on our defense

[App91]

Let's face it, the UT performance led to much of this hype. If we had been blown out at UT, I don't think the national media would have focused so much on this game. Secondly, I'm not sure NC State was ranked when they went to USA, so there wasn't going to be the same level of hype. I think the hype was unavoidable and in the end we didn't lose because of the hype. I don't think we did anything we shouldn't have done in the lead up to the game.

Yeah we did, Don't talk trash! All those who did now look like asses

I'm talking from the standpoint of what the athletic department did to promote the game and atmosphere. No doubt, we had fans who thought we would roll Miami and went to social media and blogs to state such.

Agreed, on the Ath. dept and really the town side of things i was, pleasantly, surprised. I was on record prior to thinking it would not go well, but it did

Damn 91 - you are such a ray of sunshine - Did BlackSaturday take over your thought processes?

I know, i know, I just thought it was bigger than anyone in Boone had seen, and gave ample time to get around

[Yosef84]

I tend to agree that the statement "App is still playing with FCS recruits on the team" is wearing very thin. We started getting a higher quality recruit almost immediately when we announced our move up. I am sure the recruiting will continue to build and improve but I think these guys are well above a normal "FCS" recruiting level.

[NCCane]

Seeing the players constantly looking over to the sideline and running on an off the field so late reminded me of the how the Canes defense was during the previous regime. Hopefully your team gets that corrected soon.

Good luck to you guys.

[WVAPPeer]

I agree it shouldn't be an excuse but when Cox and Law played their freshman year they were playing against SoCon competition - Yes those guys were recruited for a future of FBS football but it wasn't the present - FireMoose can explain this much better than I ---

[eggers76]

Our recruiting is definitely on the upswing in terms of overall talent. But we are not there yet, this game exposed this pretty clearly. We have some tremendous players but we don't currently have the depth of talent and the combination of size and speed to compete regularly with top P5 teams. Someone told me that the TV announcers for the game made the comment that Miami has over 30 ESPN top 300 recruits, App State has 0. That's a pretty telling stat even taking into account that "stars" are over hyped.

We have shown that we can typically do more with less, and of course we compare more favorably against G5 and maybe lower level P5. It takes time and we have to be patient.

[WVAPPeer]

I honestly don't think we will ever "compete regularly with the top P5 teams" if we are not in a P5 conference - Occasionally - sure --- regularly - not so sure ---

[ericsaid]

What was exposed was the defensive line. The size difference resulted in the linebackers needing to play close to the line and that the safeties came forward on play action instead of holding the back line. The outside backer has to come in on run support because the defensive ends aren't big enough to set the edge which meant that the screen plays were essentially 2 v 2. When the deep passes were completed, the App defense, inexplicably continued to crash on the routes less than 10 yards which left Duck and Williams in one on one situations which Kaaya exploited.

There aren't any remains QB's on the schedule who can throw as good of a deep ball as Kaaya and there aren't any teams left with the athletes across the board to exploit the secondary in the fashion that Miami did.

The sky isn't falling. As mentioned by the ESPN commentary, App is still playing with FCS recruits on the team. The better athletes are just now coming around to realize what can be done at Appalachian and this game went a long way to proving the POSSIBILITIES for the future. Rome wasn't built in a day and Boise didn't become Boise in the first two years of FBS play.

I don't think you can use that as an excuse. Especially considering John Law and Marcus Cox would be two in the group you're including in FCS recruits.

Yes, actually I can. While Cox is an exception, Law certainly is a smarter player than he is physically gifted. The players App will be bringing in will have Laws instincts with the physical traits needed to compete regularly against teams like Miami. So the difference in recruiting FBS versus FCS is excusable hence why you see players like Duck and Evantons getting playing time as true freshman as well as Vic Johnson at tackle who is a redshirt.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter when play calling on defense is the issue. Woody called a game that allowed Miami to play to its strength and Apps weakness instead of forcing everything to the middle of the defense where App is best.

[firemoose]

As I've said in other threads we're still two full years minimum (not counting the current season) from being a G5 FBS program as far as recruiting goes. Again that means that every player on the roster was recruited as part of a normal, non transitional, G5 FBS recruiting class and that the lowest class (RS Fr and So's) have at least one year of experience. And even then we're still lacking at a couple of positions, most notably OL due to losing an entire class (average class of four) with losses of two each in two classes due to attrition, and NG/DT, due to missing on signing anyone in the 2016 class at that position. And keep in mind that is if everything goes perfect and we don't lose any more true FBS recruits to attrition, which you have to expect to lose some each year for various reasons. In reality we are three to four years from being full FBS in both classes and positions. And that's a G5 FBS program. As has been said it takes time and patience.

And one big consideration that everyone has to keep in mind is how any coaching staff changes, whether one or all, will affect our current and future classes. Everyone faces it at any level but for move up/transitional programs, until they are fully FBS, those types of changes can add a year or two to the timeline. Just food for thought.

[Saint3333]

Law was recruited by Cincy and was the exception in that 2012 class. Even if we keep all the guys we have verbals from this year, Law would still be the 11th highest rated recruit App ever had.

[Yosef10]

If any of you guys are members over at AppStateMania I would go check out ASM's comments on App being so-called "out coached" by UM. Just ain't so. For those who aren't a member I'll try to reiterate what he said, and he sees things a lot closer up than 99% on here, and that definitely includes myself. There's a lot of bluff coverages we ran/run, like the 60 yd TD they scored on 3rd & 10. Woody showed them a look with the thought in mind that Kaaya would check to a Go route on the outside. Low and behold that's exactly what happened, Alex Gray simply held the bluff for too long and didn't have time to recover which is why you saw no safety help on that TD. You guys honestly think we couldn't "adjust" to a simple screen pass? Not the case. On defense we try to dictate what the opposing offense does, not take reactive measures which is exactly what offenses what. Allowing screen after screen was simply baiting them into what we wanted them to do. Just simply couldn't execute from there. That's where having the better talent comes into play. Our gameplan and coaching is just fine, execution needs a bit of work.

This doesn't take "seeing things a lot closer" to know. If you watch the game, you know that the defense wanted to bait Kaaya in to throwing the deep ball to force him to hold on to the ball longer. What you see isn't coaching or execution, it was the talent difference. You have 250 lb, 285 lb, 240 lb, and 195 lb player's rushing the QB against an average of 6-5 305 lbs and athletics enough to keep up. The issue is player size in Woody's defense doesn't allow him to call the bluffs. He should have played a don't lose situation and allowed the safeties to stay back, force the ball underneath and play to the strength of your defense which is the middle of the field.

He took out the best players of his defense when he forced Kaaya to go deep with ball, as evidenced by Law's read on the goal line and Kaaya's interception to the middle of the field against FAU.

He was outcoached.

My "seeing things a lot closer" comment was due to him being an insider and embedded with the program, not just a fan on a message board like you are Eric. I'll rely on ASMs insight and info since he actually, you know, talks to the coaches. But it seems like maybe you should throw your hat in the ring for D coordinator whenever our staff gets raided.

But you also contradicted yourself by saying it "wasn't coaching or execution but talent difference" and then ended it with saying he was outcoached. I'll also add it's pretty easy to get "outcoached" when the gap in talent and athleticism is as big as it was on Saturday.

[WVAPPeer]

Thanks Moose !!! - I knew you could explain it ---

[ericsaid]

If any of you guys are members over at AppStateMania I would go check out ASM's comments on App being so-called "out coached" by UM. Just ain't so. For those who aren't a member I'll try to reiterate what he said, and he sees things a lot closer up than 99% on here, and that definitely includes myself. There's a lot of bluff coverages we ran/run, like the 60 yd TD they scored on 3rd & 10. Woody showed them a look with the thought in mind that Kaaya would check to a Go route on the outside. Low and behold that's exactly what happened, Alex Gray simply held the bluff for too long and didn't have time to recover which is why you saw no safety help on that TD. You guys honestly think we couldn't "adjust" to a simple screen pass? Not the case. On defense we try to dictate what the opposing offense does, not take reactive measures which is exactly what offenses what. Allowing screen after screen was simply baiting them into what we wanted them to do. Just simply couldn't execute from there. That's where having the better talent comes into play. Our gameplan and coaching is just fine, execution needs a bit of work.

This doesn't take "seeing things a lot closer" to know. If you watch the game, you know that the defense wanted to bait Kaaya in to throwing the deep ball to force him to hold on to the ball longer. What you see isn't coaching or execution, it was the talent difference. You have 250 lb, 285 lb, 240 lb, and 195 lb player's rushing the QB against an average of 6-5 305 lbs and athletics enough to keep up. The issue is player size in Woody's defense doesn't allow him to call the bluffs. He should have played a don't lose situation and allowed the safeties to stay back, force the ball underneath and play to the strength of your defense which is the middle of the field.

He took out the best players of his defense when he forced Kaaya to go deep with ball, as evidenced by Law's read on the goal line and Kaaya's interception to the middle of the field against FAU.

He was outcoached.

My "seeing things a lot closer" comment was due to him being an insider and embedded with the program, not just a fan on a message board like you are Eric. I'll rely on ASMs insight and info since he actually, you know, talks to the coaches. But it seems like maybe you should throw your hat in the ring for D coordinator whenever our staff gets raided.

But you also contradicted yourself by saying it "wasn't coaching or execution but talent difference" and then ended it with saying he was outcoached. I'll also add it's pretty easy to get "outcoached" when the gap in talent and athleticism is as big as it was on Saturday.

Talent was an issue against Tennessee however the game was closer. That gap expansion is based on coaching. I took what you said the person who is close to the program and provided an analysis for it. You don't disagree or agree, only attack the semantics of my comments.

My point is that regardless of execution, the play calling was less than optimal because Woody allowed for Miami's strength (wide receiver, tight end talent) to be matched up on a weakness (defensive backfield) of App's. Even when Grey was in position, he got beat. Thus, how about we play them 15 yards off the line and have them take their first step back instead of forward, and trust that the linebackers will get to the runner in the case of a run play while the DB's are in position to split on a dig or crash on a flag or out route?

Based on what your friend the insider said, as a fan, I can deduce plays and play calling how I would like. If you want to ignore my analysis, that's fine, but it isn't without Merritt or logic.

[bigdaddyg]

I am a numbers guy and something just came to mind. I wonder how do P5/G5 schools rank as far as students versus team ranking? What I mean is, are there comparably sized schools (like App) who can regularly compete with the big boys? We get hung up on competing against the Miami's, Clemson's and Tennessee's. We simply are not going to beat out the big programs for the 4 and 5 star guys. Even though we debate the legitimacy of the star system we can't deny it is right most of the time. We reached a level of FCS power and we were damned proud of it. How about we become a G5 power and then just see where it goes. There was a bunch of talk about Boise but I haven't really heard their name lately.

[App90]

"Yosef10 Wrote"
My "seeing things a lot closer" comment was due to him being an insider and embedded with the program, not just a fan on a message board like you are Eric. I'll rely on ASMs insight and info since he actually, you know, talks to the coaches. But it seems like maybe you should throw your hat in the ring for D coordinator whenever our staff gets raided.

But you also contradicted yourself by saying it "wasn't coaching or execution but talent difference" and then ended it with saying he was outcoached. I'll also add it's pretty easy to get "outcoached" when the gap in talent and athleticism is as big as it was on Saturday.

If you are a defensive cordinator, and this was the actual game plan "I would pose this question to our coaching staff, if you are dictating the plays Miami will check down to, why would you put our players in one on one match ups when you had an idea you might get beat by the better athlete, regardless if the safety was supposed to get back in time or not. I watched our safeties peek into the backfield and struggled moving up for run support or giving help over the top. I think Ericsaid has a valid point on both of them, why bluff with the defensive schemes that ASU's players couldnt back up with their athletic ability, and let UM exploit them, ASU is at least 2-3 years from that strategy, then you kept doing it." For the record Im not an insider nor am I coach, but I watched time and time again the same plays killing ASU". Mad respect for UM, but if thats the strategy ASU's coaching stayed with/used, it amplified the problems on the defensive side. Made UM look like the next National Champion.

[AppDawg]

I am a numbers guy and something just came to mind. I wonder how do P5/G5 schools rank as far as students versus team ranking? What I mean is, are there comparably sized schools (like App) who can regularly compete with the big boys? We get hung up on competing against the Miami's, Clemson's and Tennessee's. We simply are not going to beat out the big programs for the 4 and 5 star guys. Even though we debate the legitimacy of the star system we can't deny it is right most of the time. We reached a level of FCS power and we were damned proud of it. How about we become a G5 power and then just see where it goes. There was a bunch of talk about Boise but I haven't really heard their name lately.

Are you asking the comparability in size of student body? If so, we have more students than Miami. The same as Clemson and less than Tenn.

Don't think there is much correlation between size of school and ranking.

[bigdaddyg]

I am a numbers guy and something just came to mind. I wonder how do P5/G5 schools rank as far as students versus team ranking? What I mean is, are there comparably sized schools (like App) who can regularly compete with the big boys? We get hung up on competing against the Miami's, Clemson's and Tennessee's. We simply are not going to beat out the big programs for the 4 and 5 star guys. Even though we debate the legitimacy of the star system we can't deny it is right most of the time. We reached a level of FCS power and we were damned proud of it. How about we become a G5 power and then just see where it goes. There was a bunch of talk about Boise but I haven't really heard their name lately.

Are you asking the comparability in size of student body? If so, we have more students than Miami. The same as Clemson and less than Tenn.

Don't think there is much correlation between size of school and ranking.

Not really correlating the two. Obviously App is smaller in size than a UT, Ohio St and the like. We are routinely called a "small" school so I was just curious where we would shake out

[TheMoody1]

When people are talking about "small school", I assume it refers to athletic budget. That is the real separation between P5 and G5.

[MtnDevil95]

I think when the college football talking heads and writers refer to App as a "small" school, they are referring to the size of the football program and relative monetary/fan base support, less to the size of the student body of the university. Certainly Miami and Stanford are examples of "bigger" schools with smaller student population (although Stanford is just slightly smaller). Hell even Notre Dame, arguably one of the biggest football programs, has fewer students on campus.

Back to the topic of the thread, I do believe Richt watched the tape of the UT game and recognized the Vols most successful offensive series were in hurry up mode. I'm willing to bet that even though Miami coaches clearly planned to attack the smaller App d-backs with a hurry up offense, even still they did not expect it to be as successful as that game plan turned out to be. App had a failing on multiple fronts on defense that will have to be corrected. Yes, the late play calls from the sidelines left the defense out of position when the ball was snapped, but the d-backs just did not play well. As DJ said in the podcast at the beginning of the week, App's d-backs played the wrong angles and that allowed some of the big plays to break, as well as some of the yards after catch to pile up.

The good news is that both of these shortcomings are correctable. Correctable in 1 week? Maybe not entirely, but by the time the SunBelt kicks up? Yes, I still have faith in Woody and our players to learn from the mistakes and tape and get better.

[fjblair]

Our offensive pace is anything but fast so the defense in practice has all day to get the calls in

We haven't run a real jet offense since the Armanti days and I don't know why.

[mountaineerman]

Yes Akron in secondary shred mode