G5 Playoff

[EastHallApp]

I can see the logic, but I'm not in favor of it.

For one, I'm dubious it would be that lucrative. Why would we assume that networks who pay chump change to televise G5 football will suddenly empty the piggy bank to show the same teams playing in the postseason?

Put me in the camp that thinks a shot at the NY6 - or even a lesser bowl with a P5 tie-in or G5 champion vs. champion - is more appealing than a G5 playoff. In an 8-team playoff, seven of those teams are going to end their season with a loss to another G5 team. That definitely does not sound more appealing to me than a bowl game. And for the winner, I just don't think the payoff is that high. If only one G5 team gets to claim the big prize, I'd rather that prize be a NY6 bowl against a top 10 P5 than a G5 playoff trophy.

Then you get into how well fans will travel - much like the FCS playoffs, instead of asking fans to go to one bowl game with 2-3 weeks' notice, you're asking them to travel three times with probably a week's notice each time.

Finally, while it's true that it's going to be very hard for any G5 team to crack a 4-team playoff, we also haven't seen one yet that had a serious claim. WMU was ranked where they were because that's what their schedule warranted. They played in one of the weaker leagues and their best P5 win was 6-6 Northwestern. If Houston hadn't crapped the bed in their conference, I believe they would have made the playoff.

[JTApps1]

JT - I do believe you are correct - for you or someone else on here that would care to share --- Do the G5s have any clout or enough clout to get our conference champions in more prestigious bowl match-ups (as I explored a couple of posts earlier)?

I really don't know how much clout the conferences have. If the bowls that are aligned with the P5's are happy they will stay with them. Our best bet would be to get TV Networks to push for G5 Champs to play better games. Maybe instead of creating a playoff work to get the 4 champs that aren't in the CFP to play each other in two highly thought of bowls. That would still require a few bowls to step up, or for someone to pour money in to some of the current bowls to push them as being big time games.

[AppGrad78]

P5s are always going to need G5s to pad out their out-of-conference schedules. Otherwise, P5s would have branched off long ago.

Don't think he said that. He was referencing P5s playing at G5s.

You might want to re-read BigC's post:

"Lets forget about the money for a minute. As soon as divide occurs and there are separate playoffs, the P5 will stop scheduling the G5. We moved up to get those guys to play in Boone. That will go away quickly, and we'll be right back where we were before we even get started. Luckily this playoff contracts runs for awhile and nothing will change too soon. An 8 team playoff, IMO, is more likely, and the rest of us will hope we get a seat or two at the table."

[JTApps1]

I don't like the idea of a G5 playoff at all. As others have already stated (or implied), this would be the beginning of a new subdivision. It is exactly the mentality that created I-AA back in the late 70's. The assumption that this would close the gap in terms of revenue is a HUGE assumption and I think it is highly doubtful. As soon as we call it a "championship" we are acknowledging that we are a separate division (not just a designation within a division) and nobody outside of G5 will pay a bit of attention. Once we are viewed as a separate division, I can see the P5 imposing more and more distinctions in order to widen the advantage: Reduced scholarships, Staff limits....all those same differences that FCS has now. We might as well move back to FCS and be done with it.

I loved the playoffs when we were there but I would much rather have one or two slots available (down the road) in an 8 or 12 team FBS playoff. Yes, an early match up with Bama would probably be lopsided but that is true for most P5 teams as well. I'm sure the Pioneer league feels that way about the FCS playoffs. Maybe they should have an FCS Limited Scholarship Championship Playoff.

FBS teams who can't compete with Bama already have a meaningful championship to play for. It's called a Conference Championship! How bout if the G5 just does some work on the existing Bowl alignments to get more meaningful matchups in bowls so that Champions are playing against Champions. That would be a good accomplishment and would probably raise the interest in G5 Bowls.

I think we are kidding ourselves if we think the G5 isn't already another subdivision. G5 confrences will never get the same amount of coverage, money, or respect as a P5 conference.
A G5 team will never make the 4 team playoff, and probably not even if the playoff is expanded.
To me, a G5 playoff is the best way for a team to show what kind of talent they have AS A TEAM, and overcome the stigma (good or bad) from the conference they belong to. Many people assume we are not a super tough team because we only play in the weak Sunbelt, whereas other teams strut about and hypothetically say they would beat another team because they are from the AAC.
The playoff makes sense because it doesn't matter what teams have tie-ins with certain conferences and certain bowls, it allows quality teams to showcase their talents against other quality teams based on winning against other quality teams, rather than 2 teams play each other because the bowl closest to their home base chooses them, and that particular bowl has a tie in with a certain conference, who sends a team because they happend to beat an FCS team for their 6th win of the season.

How are we going to overcome a stigma with our conference if we only play teams from other G5's in the post season? The common thought would be ok well you're the best of the G5's which are all second rate.

[JTApps1]

I can see the logic, but I'm not in favor of it.

For one, I'm dubious it would be that lucrative. Why would we assume that networks who pay chump change to televise G5 football will suddenly empty the piggy bank to show the same teams playing in the postseason?

Put me in the camp that thinks a shot at the NY6 - or even a lesser bowl with a P5 tie-in or G5 champion vs. champion - is more appealing than a G5 playoff. In an 8-team playoff, seven of those teams are going to end their season with a loss to another G5 team. That definitely does not sound more appealing to me than a bowl game. And for the winner, I just don't think the payoff is that high. If only one G5 team gets to claim the big prize, I'd rather that prize be a NY6 bowl against a top 10 P5 than a G5 playoff trophy.

Then you get into how well fans will travel - much like the FCS playoffs, instead of asking fans to go to one bowl game with 2-3 weeks' notice, you're asking them to travel three times with probably a week's notice each time.

Finally, while it's true that it's going to be very hard for any G5 team to crack a 4-team playoff, we also haven't seen one yet that had a serious claim. WMU was ranked where they were because that's what their schedule warranted. They played in one of the weaker leagues and their best P5 win was 6-6 Northwestern. If Houston hadn't crapped the bed in their conference, I believe they would have made the playoff.

You bring up a good point about the travel. When teams play in half empty stadiums with a "national championship" on the line it will immediately look like second rate ball, and people will write it off.

People forget Houston was ranked #6 until they lost a conference game. Had they won out with wins over, Louisville, Navy, and Temple they would have had a good shot at the Semi-Final.

[App1990]

In case anyone didn't realize it, as the NIU AD correctly points out, there is already a different reality between G5 and P5. The two are already different divisions in reality if not formally. The terms have already differentiated them, and P5 conference scheduling rules have made the distinction. And for good reason because the economic realities and business models are completely different. P5 programs have budgets 6 times larger than G5 programs. P5 programs live off TV and don't run operating deficits and don't need subsidies like student fees. G5 programs live off ticket sales, TV money is trivial, run 60-80% operating deficits that require subsidies. G5 programs feel forced to keep up with P5 programs by spending money they don't have, which forces them to tap into the university and students at increasing (and disturbing rates). And IT IS NOT WORKING. The gap between the P5 and G5 is only getting larger, on the field and on the accounting sheet. The financial trends are getting worse, not better. The NIU AD sees this, and points out that continuing this path is idiotic and unsustainable.

The playoff idea is to save G5 from becoming more irrelevant. Right now, the G5 bowls, and many of the P5 bowls, are simply irrelevant. It's a joke of a system when over half the teams get to go bowling. The plentiful opportunities means they are not very valuable. And the P5 playoff is adding to making the bowls more irrelevant. Seriously, the first Camellia Bowl was fun because it was a new challenge and new accomplishment, but over time its easy to see that playing a MAC team in an early bowl will lose its luster. Other G5's are already there. The bowls don't hold a candle to the playoffs for fun, excitement and interest. People watch selection show. It forces people to keep track of other games to see future opponents. And they are playing for something that matters nationally. Few outside App and Toledo cared about our bowl game. It had no implications for anyone else.

I'm not sure a G5 playoff is best, though I lean that way. But I do know that the current realities is unsustainable for G5. Recognizing that ticket sales are king for G5 conf, these programs need to reorganize to tighter geographical conferences to build rivalries, increase interest, increase visiting fan travel, and reduce travel costs. These regional conf could have champ games that feed to a playoff system. The current stance of trying to keep up with P5 is unsustainable and unrealistic. To hold on to a broken system for the super long shot of a G5 making a playoff is simply unwise. The G5 needs to do what is in their best interest. The old bowl system was created in a different era, and that no longer works for G5 programs.

And I point out that one of the strongest arguments for moving up to FBS was from those that saw this happening. It was to get in before the G5 and P5 split. It was the hope that we'd end up with ECU, Boise St, etc. in a second tier instead of Elon, WCU in a third tier. My hope is that we end up in a conference that makes geographical sense with compelling rivalries, including ECU, UNCC, JMU, etc. A playoff that pits up against Boise St, Colorado St., etc. would seem to make it even better.

[T-Dog]

This was a quote from a single Group of 5 AD. This G5 AD, I might add, went to Alabama.

[Yosef10]

A lot of good points made on both sides. I think it seems basically everyone would be satisfied if bowl tie ins were just simply better than what they are. As App1990 mentioned the costs need to be reigned in and G5 does live off the ticket sales. I think everyone would benefit from more regional conferences as we've all said.

[appst89]

A lot of good points made on both sides. I think it seems basically everyone would be satisfied if bowl tie ins were just simply better than what they are. As App1990 mentioned the costs need to be reigned in and G5 does live off the ticket sales. I think everyone would benefit from more regional conferences as we've all said.

From some things I have heard, that may be a lot closer than any of us realize.

[AppDawg]

A wise man once said, "those who do no learn history are doomed to repeat it..."

The 1-AA saga all over. It is an Emphatic "No" from me.

The G5 right now has some leverage. P5's are paying well in excess for a home game for SOS because they can't afford to play an FCS. As the G5 pushes that price point near $2 million and further, you will see more P5/G5 home and homes because they can't afford the high price tags required. You go to a separate playoffs and this leverage and possibility of P5/G5 home and homes evaporates very quickly.

[AppinVA]

A wise man once said, "those who do no learn history are doomed to repeat it..."

The 1-AA saga all over. It is an Emphatic "No" from me.

The G5 right now has some leverage. P5's are paying well in excess for a home game for SOS because they can't afford to play an FCS. As the G5 pushes that price point near $2 million and further, you will see more P5/G5 home and homes because they can't afford the high price tags required. You go to a separate playoffs and this leverage and possibility of P5/G5 home and homes evaporates very quickly.

Well said.

We may very well be forced into the second coming of I-AA, but I don't want to see us going willingly. And that some here thinks it's a good idea, baffles me to no end.

[WVAPPeer]

A wise man once said, "those who do no learn history are doomed to repeat it..."

The 1-AA saga all over. It is an Emphatic "No" from me.

The G5 right now has some leverage. P5's are paying well in excess for a home game for SOS because they can't afford to play an FCS. As the G5 pushes that price point near $2 million and further, you will see more P5/G5 home and homes because they can't afford the high price tags required. You go to a separate playoffs and this leverage and possibility of P5/G5 home and homes evaporates very quickly.

Well said.

We may very well be forced into the second coming of I-AA, but I don't want to see us going willingly. And that some here thinks it's a good idea, baffles me to no end.

Understood - but are you saying you are ok with exactly how it stands now? ---

[mtd Security]

Honestly, there are pros and cons to the idea.

If this were to happen. The games except for the "Quote" National Champion G5 game should be played at the home sites of the higher seated team.

If these were to happen the follow FCS teams should immediately move up to a G-5 conferences. I mean immediately. The FCS playoffs, conferences, teams, etc should moreless not exist.
1. North Dakota St
2. Montana
3. James Madison
4. Eastern Washington
5. Villanova
6. Delaware
7. New Hampshire
8. Richmond
9. Harvard - Yes, I going there
10. South Dakota St
11. Youngstown St
12. Northern Iowa
13. Illinois St
14. Jacksonville St
15. Sam Houston St
16. McNeese St
17. Grambling - Maybe
18. There may be more... say entire conferences MVC, CAA

Now the downside. Let's say the P-5 teams do break off. Should the follow teams really go with them to form there own league. Honestly the follow are no better than G-5 teams and will never be in a 4 or even an 8 team playoff
1. Boston College
2. Duke
3. Wake Forest
4. Virginia
5. Iowa St
6. Kanas
7. Rutgers
8. Purdue
9. Oregon St
10. Vanderbilt

[AppDawg]

A wise man once said, "those who do no learn history are doomed to repeat it..."

The 1-AA saga all over. It is an Emphatic "No" from me.

The G5 right now has some leverage. P5's are paying well in excess for a home game for SOS because they can't afford to play an FCS. As the G5 pushes that price point near $2 million and further, you will see more P5/G5 home and homes because they can't afford the high price tags required. You go to a separate playoffs and this leverage and possibility of P5/G5 home and homes evaporates very quickly.

Well said.

We may very well be forced into the second coming of I-AA, but I don't want to see us going willingly. And that some here thinks it's a good idea, baffles me to no end.

Understood - but are you saying you are ok with exactly how it stands now? ---

There are things I like and dislike about where we currently stand. I think it is a continually improving process. With the former BCS, it is my opinion, too many G5's came too close to getting into the National Championship game due to computer rankings. The powers that be didn't like this. Thus, The 4 team "playoff" was created to keep this from happening by introducing back into the mix a human element. They threw the G5 a bone via the "Access to nowhere" bowl. Do I like this? No. However, I think it is a step in the right direction as it should lead to an 8 team playoff and wishfully (my Utopia) years down the road where all FBS conference champions get an automatic bid.

I also like the new SOS emphasis. It forces P5's to schedule more G5's. Other than with the SEC, I think we will see considerably less P5 vs FCS games... i.e. the Big10. This can only be good for us, especially when we start putting some of these games in the W column on a regular basis.

[AppinVA]

A wise man once said, "those who do no learn history are doomed to repeat it..."

The 1-AA saga all over. It is an Emphatic "No" from me.

The G5 right now has some leverage. P5's are paying well in excess for a home game for SOS because they can't afford to play an FCS. As the G5 pushes that price point near $2 million and further, you will see more P5/G5 home and homes because they can't afford the high price tags required. You go to a separate playoffs and this leverage and possibility of P5/G5 home and homes evaporates very quickly.

Well said.

We may very well be forced into the second coming of I-AA, but I don't want to see us going willingly. And that some here thinks it's a good idea, baffles me to no end.

Understood - but are you saying you are ok with exactly how it stands now? ---

Does it have to be all one way or all the other? Because if it does, I'm perfectly fine with the way it stands. Otherwise, there can be some tweaking to the current system, but I see no reason to repeat 1978-1981 all over again.

[WVAPPeer]

No...I'm not saying or even implying "one or the other", it was about alternatives. If you have read this thread you will have seen where I posed the question about influence possible for the G5 champions to play in a top tier bowl against quality P5 teams. Face the fact that the current system we basically have 2 options...to be chosen for the NY6 or the Camellia against a MAC team. Right now it is either "One or the other"

[AppinVA]

No...I'm not saying or even implying "one or the other", it was about alternatives. If you have read this thread you will have seen where I posed the question about influence possible for the G5 champions to play in a top tier bowl against quality P5 teams. Face the fact that the current system we basically have 2 options...to be chosen for the NY6 or the Camellia against a MAC team. Right now it is either "One or the other"

Do I want access to better bowls? Of course I do. But let's keep in mind that there are contracts that we need to serve out, and in the meantime, use them as an opportunity to prove our case to get better bows. Giving up and reinventing the I-AA playoff model, and falling for the same promises made in 1978 and broken in 1983, makes absolutely no sense.

[AppOrange]

Absolutely not, I'll take a 1 in 1000 shot over no shot at all.

Instead of lobbying for this BS, have some vision and take small steps, lobby for bigger bowls and a seat at the table when the playoffs expand . . . regardless of the path.

[The Rock]

I don't like the idea of a G5 playoff at all. As others have already stated (or implied), this would be the beginning of a new subdivision. It is exactly the mentality that created I-AA back in the late 70's. The assumption that this would close the gap in terms of revenue is a HUGE assumption and I think it is highly doubtful. As soon as we call it a "championship" we are acknowledging that we are a separate division (not just a designation within a division) and nobody outside of G5 will pay a bit of attention. Once we are viewed as a separate division, I can see the P5 imposing more and more distinctions in order to widen the advantage: Reduced scholarships, Staff limits....all those same differences that FCS has now. We might as well move back to FCS and be done with it.

I loved the playoffs when we were there but I would much rather have one or two slots available (down the road) in an 8 or 12 team FBS playoff. Yes, an early match up with Bama would probably be lopsided but that is true for most P5 teams as well. I'm sure the Pioneer league feels that way about the FCS playoffs. Maybe they should have an FCS Limited Scholarship Championship Playoff.

FBS teams who can't compete with Bama already have a meaningful championship to play for. It's called a Conference Championship! How bout if the G5 just does some work on the existing Bowl alignments to get more meaningful matchups in bowls so that Champions are playing against Champions. That would be a good accomplishment and would probably raise the interest in G5 Bowls.

I think we are kidding ourselves if we think the G5 isn't already another subdivision. G5 confrences will never get the same amount of coverage, money, or respect as a P5 conference.
A G5 team will never make the 4 team playoff, and probably not even if the playoff is expanded.
To me, a G5 playoff is the best way for a team to show what kind of talent they have AS A TEAM, and overcome the stigma (good or bad) from the conference they belong to. Many people assume we are not a super tough team because we only play in the weak Sunbelt, whereas other teams strut about and hypothetically say they would beat another team because they are from the AAC.
The playoff makes sense because it doesn't matter what teams have tie-ins with certain conferences and certain bowls, it allows quality teams to showcase their talents against other quality teams based on winning against other quality teams, rather than 2 teams play each other because the bowl closest to their home base chooses them, and that particular bowl has a tie in with a certain conference, who sends a team because they happend to beat an FCS team for their 6th win of the season.

I understand what you're saying, I simply don't agree. The idea of a championship has an appeal but drawing this line is where the separation is no longer academic. It is real, and I don't believe it would stop with the playoffs. We might even get a short term lift in revenue (although I doubt it) but anyone who believes that the "G5 National Championship would interest anyone outside the G5 is the person kidding him/herself. Once this line is drawn, we begin a brand new process of diluting our own product. Our value for "money" games will likely drop as there will no longer be any illusion about it being a game against a team from the same division.

We all know that there is a line between the P5 and the G5. That line is created by the budgets these programs have to spend. For now, that line is soft and can be crossed on occasion (Boise State and Houston for example). I understand these teams didn't compete for the national championship but they have entered the national conversation and get respect (even Boise get respect this year when they are clearly having a "down" period). If you make that line hard, you are creating your own ceiling. I prefer competing in our conference and bowls and knowing the long shot is available to living under that self imposed ceiling....AGAIN. Been there and done that.

It's just my opinion and nobody is obliged to agree. I don't think this would play out the way they project it....at least not for long.

I also don't think a G5 playoff will increase interest outside of the people who care about G5 football, because it wont. My point was it would make it more exciting and a more evenly matched contests than the current system for those who do care about G5 football.
While we are in a much better situation now than when we were FCS, we will probably never be viewed as equal to P5 schools, especially the upper echelon of P5 schools such as Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Clemson, Ohio state, etc, so to me, a playoff wouldn't be the insult thAt many People think it would be.

[Yosef10]

Kinda off topic but kinda on topic. Was listening to a show in the triangle today and they were talking about this subject and toward the end they started talking about the best conferences and who would be looked at first for the NY6 and of course the AAC and MWC were mentioned but one guy actually mentioned the SBC as well. Basically reiterated what most of us have said that the top of the conference is just as good as any other conferences best. I know it's only one guy but hopefully others are seeing that and perception of the conference is beginning to change a bit.