Personally, this is one of my favorite episodes ever! Big C, DJ and I ALWAYS have a great time and this is no different!

DJ joins the show and we hash out whether or not a G5 Playoff would be good for App State!


https://soundcloud.com/blackandgoldpodc ... -a-playoff

Good job guys as always ! Always love hearing DJ's takes as well. When I first heard about a potential G5 playoff, I totally thought about it from the standpoint of keeping the little guy down. However, IF we first get a conference realignment accomplished, I may be willing to listen.

If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

AppDawg wrote:If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

I'm with Big C on this. A playoff cements the distinction between G5 and P5. When we made this move we had no illusions about an NC. What's changed? To me conference realignment is a much more important topic.

APPARJ wrote:

AppDawg wrote:If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

Agreed with conf realignment. Also agree with C no to a G5 only playoff. My suggestion is a NIT style tournament. Just avoid drawing a distinct line between FBS moreso than already is. Once that line is colored in, there will be no more Boise's or Houston's of the world.

I fear a bright line and willingly going to a G5 playoff will follow the FCS model... regionalization (which is good), but also will eventually lead to scholarship reductions and reduced TV exposure. It is a Buzz Peterson scenario, fool me once... fool me twice...

APPARJ wrote:

AppDawg wrote:If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I too am in favor of conference realignment first and then look at a matchup of conference champs in higher profile bowls. I really do not want a separate G5 Championship.

I'll have to try to carve out enough time to listen sometime this week, but I'm a little confused as to why conference realignment and a G5 playoff would necessarily be linked. I'm strongly in favor of the former, but somewhat opposed to the latter.

A good solution for App would be to improve the quality of the bowl game available to us (one G5 champion vs. another) while maintaining the availability for solid regular season games (like 2016 and 2017).

If each year we won the SBC, but missed out on the Access Bowl slot, we played the champion of another G5 program in a vacation location that would be a great reward for a good season. If we finish second or worse we go to the Camellia or Cure Bowl. I'd take that tomorrow.

JTApps1 wrote:

APPARJ wrote:

AppDawg wrote:If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

APPARJ wrote:

JTApps1 wrote:

APPARJ wrote:

AppDawg wrote:If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

AppDawg wrote:

APPARJ wrote:

JTApps1 wrote:

APPARJ wrote:

AppDawg wrote:If a second playoff is started, it should take the form of the NIT b-ball tournament where all FBS (P5 and G5) are eligible which are not in the "big" playoff. Ideally, both of these would be 8 team brackets.

This is the only way I could be swayed. Otherwise, we fought to go FBS for nothing. In 15 years we'll be back where we started in 1-AA, just under a different moniker.

With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

Genuine question, how are we "in" 1-A football right now that would be so different with a G5 playoff system? The hope against hope for NY6?

I truly believe that this team is close to being in the discussion for the Access Bowl slot. There is zero chance that I would give up depriving our current players (and past players foundation building years) an opportunity to play in one of the biggest six bowls that year for a G5 playoff.

Reach for the stars, dream big, I know our players and staff do. I'd like to continue giving them that chance.

APPARJ wrote:

AppDawg wrote:

APPARJ wrote:

JTApps1 wrote:

APPARJ wrote:
With or without a G5 playoff, in 15 years we'll still be a G5 program that will never get a shot at the CFP. The only thing linking App State and Alabama is the label "FBS" and it's shared with 126 other programs. Avoiding a G5 playoff because one doesn't want to lose that perceived equal "FBS" status with the P5 programs doesn't make sense considering the P5/G5 divide is real.

As we discuss in this episode, it seems like that best way to improve the G5 experience is realignment that focuses on regions vs. TV contracts and markets. I agreed with what Big C wisely pointed out: until G5 conferences makes sense, the G5 Playoff doesn't.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. It would also send a message of giving in. Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I want to focus on getting better conferences put together, building great rivalries, and getting more name programs to come to Boone.

I want to respectfully ask you a couple of questions about what you said. I'm not being sarcastic, just want to clarify a couple of things.

There is a real divide, but creating a separate champion really drives it home. And once it's driven home, then what? People go from thinking we're on the level of SEC football to realizing we play in the Sun Belt? I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about the prospect of embracing that we're a great G5 program that wants to be at the top of our peers. The CFP-P5 aren't our peers and I don't care. I keep seeing attempts to compare this to FCS but besides a playoff, the comparison doesn't make sense to me.

It would also send a message of giving in. Giving into what? It seems you mean "giving in" as officially not longer trying to get into the CFP which, to be fair, was never tenable in the first place. Also, who would have the perception that we're giving in and does their perception ultimately it matter? Do potential recruits come to App State for a shot at CFP?

Personally I don't care if we can't play in the CFP (I do hope we make an Access Bowl one day) as there are a ton of P5 teams that will never make it either. I don't have a question but I completely agree with you on this point!

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

Genuine question, how are we "in" 1-A football right now that would be so different with a G5 playoff system? The hope against hope for NY6?

We are 1-A in that we are FBS. We are eligible for the "access" game as well as an at-large spot in the current 4-team bracket. (Albeit the stars would have to align in current landscape to get it). However, I have the firm belief, 4 is just a temporary solution (interesting trivia, the 1-AA playoffs started with a 4 team field). They will go to 8 at some point and possibly 12 down the road. I want App to be positioned to be in that conversation.

The G5 playoff thought ends any of those possibilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The P5 visiting Boone, gone. Sure, we will get those games, but they will be on the road just like when we wer FCS.

I'll ask the same question I asked before, why spend all the money and effort to go FBS, if you just throw it away to start the FCS/1-AA clock all over as if we were back in the late 70's?

Listening to the to podcast I hear the points about the positives for a G5 playoff and I understand the points in this thread that the G5 is reality is a "separate" division when you compare budgets.

But if the G5 playoff only works with TV revenue and proper marketing (which I agree with), we need to understand the reality that the combined fanbases that call G5 programs their first team make up less then 10% of the bowl viewing audience. TV money isn't going to last just like it didn't last (occur) with the 1-AA playoffs.

I will also have to listen later. Conf realignment can be good keeping & making regional rivalries. G5 playoff no. I'm OK knowing we have a snow balls chance to make CFP. NC State ECU Tar Holes Duke Wake and a slew of other P5 have about the same chance as we do. Our recent FCS past provided some real fun football to watch. But Miami at the Rock? That was some fun. (Game score the exception ) I like where we are & where we're going forward One step at a time. No need to back up now. Separation anxiety is not just about perception. I think revenue is the main issue.

1ASU78 wrote:I will also have to listen later. Conf realignment can be good keeping & making regional rivalries. G5 playoff no. I'm OK knowing we have a snow balls chance to make CFP. NC State ECU Tar Holes Duke Wake and a slew of other P5 have about the same chance as we do. Our recent FCS past provided some real fun football to watch. But Miami at the Rock? That was some fun. (Game score the exception ) I like where we are & where we're going forward One step at a time. No need to back up now. Separation anxiety is not just about perception. I think revenue is the main issue.

In the three years of the CFP, how many different teams have actually made it? Alabama, Ohio State, and Clemson have all been multiple times. In all only 8 teams have made it. The reality is that probably no more than 20 teams at the FBS level have reasonable chances of making the final four. We entered FBS with this knowledge. I'm not sure why now we feel the need to create a playoff after only being at this level for 3 years ourselves.

Listening now, but I'm going to pause to give my bottom-line thought.

Let's assume a few things:

- Creating a G5 playoff wouldn't affect scheduling opportunities (which I'm not sure about).
- The playoff would be at least feasible financially.
- It's truly almost impossible for a G5 team to make a 4-team CFP (even though in reality we haven't seen a credible candidate yet).
- The CFP will never expand to a size that would make it easier for the G5 to be included (unlikely).
- And let's overlook the travel challenges of asking G5 fans to travel three times in December/early January with maybe only a week to plan each trip.

Here's my question: Which do you consider a bigger prize - beating another G5 for the championship of this newly recognized subdivision, or playing in a NY6 bowl game against a top 10 P5 opponent? Because ultimately, it's a 1:1 trade: Only one team can get the access spot now, and only one team could be G5 national champion in a playoff scenario. For my part, I'll take that NY6 bid every time.

The other seven teams in the playoff are all going to end their season with a loss. That's seven fan bases who will spend eight months being disappointed, rather than several of them being able to celebrate bowl wins.

To me, that's a lot of downsides with not much upside.

I was supportive of the move to FBS for the chance to go to bowl games IN SUPPORT OF APP. Having UNC grad and fans in my family I was getting tired of going to their bowl games. I do not want to digress to another second level playoff scene.