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Low Attendance?

Yosef10
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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Yosef10 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm

yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:38 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:34 pm
Rekdiver wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:53 am
Just curious why people sitting on the hill dont move to the empty east side stands after the game starts.
It is tough sitting on that slope.
It's mostly students on the hill for all the games I went to while at App. I stood there probably every game because the student section was full by the time we got in there.

Actually, the one time (Liberty, yikes) our group sat on the East side we were told to sit down and not be so loud by the old folks (apologies to the cool old folks) behind us. App games can be a strange football environment sometimes...
And we wonder why our students leave early. The student section looks like a can of sardines. We need to work on this. I'm not sure how much more proof is needed.
JT made a mention in an earlier post, but the students down there are there more for socialization purposes and convenience really. It's hard getting room for a big group of you don't get there early.

And to your point about students leaving at half - I know it's not up to App but I guarantee you if there was a beer garden somewhere in that stadium with views of the field you could solve a very large chunk of the problem of people leaving at half. Some may worry that with beer being sold in stadium that will lead to all sorts of foolishness with college students. So far at Ohio State the numbers are proving otherwise: https://www.thelantern.com/2017/09/ohio ... hol-sales/

On top of keeping people at the games that could provide some much needed cash for the Athletic Department.

In today's attention economy every business, and that's what the athletic department is, is competing that commodity. You have to a give most 18-22 year olds a reason to be there other than just football. Just how it is.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by WVAPPeer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:15 pm

Do any of our state universities allow alcohol sales? ---
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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by yosef13 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:17 pm

Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:38 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:34 pm
Rekdiver wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:53 am
Just curious why people sitting on the hill dont move to the empty east side stands after the game starts.
It is tough sitting on that slope.
It's mostly students on the hill for all the games I went to while at App. I stood there probably every game because the student section was full by the time we got in there.

Actually, the one time (Liberty, yikes) our group sat on the East side we were told to sit down and not be so loud by the old folks (apologies to the cool old folks) behind us. App games can be a strange football environment sometimes...
And we wonder why our students leave early. The student section looks like a can of sardines. We need to work on this. I'm not sure how much more proof is needed.
JT made a mention in an earlier post, but the students down there are there more for socialization purposes and convenience really. It's hard getting room for a big group of you don't get there early.

And to your point about students leaving at half - I know it's not up to App but I guarantee you if there was a beer garden somewhere in that stadium with views of the field you could solve a very large chunk of the problem of people leaving at half. Some may worry that with beer being sold in stadium that will lead to all sorts of foolishness with college students. So far at Ohio State the numbers are proving otherwise: https://www.thelantern.com/2017/09/ohio ... hol-sales/

On top of keeping people at the games that could provide some much needed cash for the Athletic Department.

In today's attention economy every business, and that's what the athletic department is, is competing that commodity. You have to a give most 18-22 year olds a reason to be there other than just football. Just how it is.
I think beer sales are a great idea. I'd rather have students drink 6 beers than 6 liquor drinks, like we used to do. Who knows, it may even keep some adults in their seats longer too.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by EastHallApp » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm

yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:20 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:04 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Minus all the marquee games? I'm sorry but why should these not be included when judging demand?
They should be included. It's just that those are 3-4 sellouts out of 24 games.
Our stadium has approx 22k permanent seats. I think we can all agree on that. The temp seats last year were around 2500 last year. That would give us a seating capacity of approx 24,500 last year.

We exceed that 3 times in 2016. Are these not sellouts? Are these not cases where we have more fans than seats? We already have two cases of this in 2017 with Wake and CCU, yet we are focusing on the attendance against possibly the worst program in college football.
If we don't sell at least all reserved seats, then no, that's not a sellout.

I could see two plausible definitions for a sellout at KBS. One would be where you truly cannot buy a ticket (e.g., Miami and Wake). That's an actual sellout.

You could also arguably call it a sellout if all reserved seats are sold. That's a little generous - generally when a game is sold out that means you can't buy any more tickets to it. But it at least allows you to credibly make your preferred argument that the GA ticketholders are "overflow" who are only in GA because there were no more reserved seats available. That's the case with Coastal, and maybe for Family Day last year.

Unless I'm mistaken, no other game in the past four years meets either standard.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by DaphneUrquhart » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:56 pm

Rekdiver wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:53 am
Just curious why people sitting on the hill dont move to the empty east side stands after the game starts.
It is tough sitting on that slope.
Some of our family head for the hill when the preschool grandchildren get a little squirmy. It means they can watch the game and the kids can squirm (aka roll down the hill). Personally, I'd love to keep the hill and really don't give a hoot about the track one way or another.
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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by bcoach » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:59 pm

Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:38 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:34 pm
Rekdiver wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:53 am
Just curious why people sitting on the hill dont move to the empty east side stands after the game starts.
It is tough sitting on that slope.
It's mostly students on the hill for all the games I went to while at App. I stood there probably every game because the student section was full by the time we got in there.

Actually, the one time (Liberty, yikes) our group sat on the East side we were told to sit down and not be so loud by the old folks (apologies to the cool old folks) behind us. App games can be a strange football environment sometimes...
And we wonder why our students leave early. The student section looks like a can of sardines. We need to work on this. I'm not sure how much more proof is needed.
JT made a mention in an earlier post, but the students down there are there more for socialization purposes and convenience really. It's hard getting room for a big group of you don't get there early.

And to your point about students leaving at half - I know it's not up to App but I guarantee you if there was a beer garden somewhere in that stadium with views of the field you could solve a very large chunk of the problem of people leaving at half. Some may worry that with beer being sold in stadium that will lead to all sorts of foolishness with college students. So far at Ohio State the numbers are proving otherwise: https://www.thelantern.com/2017/09/ohio ... hol-sales/

On top of keeping people at the games that could provide some much needed cash for the Athletic Department.

In today's attention economy every business, and that's what the athletic department is, is competing that commodity. You have to a give most 18-22 year olds a reason to be there other than just football. Just how it is.
Probably not a good idea to invite 18 - 20yr olds into a beer garden

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by WVAPPeer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:04 pm

Isn't the "legal" drinking age 21?
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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by AppinVA » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:43 pm

We just need a plan, a plan, to get us to 30,000 fixed seats should that again become the cutoff for FBS membership. That can include the North End Zone facility to get us to 25,000, and something that could be ready to go in the South End Zone should the need arise. Until then, moving the grass hill inward when we're able, is a good option.

I'm also in favor of a beer garden if we can legally do it. And if not, a plan to add one should the law change.
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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by yosef13 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:53 pm

EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:20 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:04 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Minus all the marquee games? I'm sorry but why should these not be included when judging demand?
They should be included. It's just that those are 3-4 sellouts out of 24 games.
Our stadium has approx 22k permanent seats. I think we can all agree on that. The temp seats last year were around 2500 last year. That would give us a seating capacity of approx 24,500 last year.

We exceed that 3 times in 2016. Are these not sellouts? Are these not cases where we have more fans than seats? We already have two cases of this in 2017 with Wake and CCU, yet we are focusing on the attendance against possibly the worst program in college football.
If we don't sell at least all reserved seats, then no, that's not a sellout.

I could see two plausible definitions for a sellout at KBS. One would be where you truly cannot buy a ticket (e.g., Miami and Wake). That's an actual sellout.

You could also arguably call it a sellout if all reserved seats are sold. That's a little generous - generally when a game is sold out that means you can't buy any more tickets to it. But it at least allows you to credibly make your preferred argument that the GA ticketholders are "overflow" who are only in GA because there were no more reserved seats available. That's the case with Coastal, and maybe for Family Day last year.

Unless I'm mistaken, no other game in the past four years meets either standard.
If we have 24,500 seat, we sale 28,000 tickets, but 500 actual seats are empty, you would not call this a sellout?

So if a true sellout is 34,685 than we were 25% below capacity last year, not 13% over capacity?

I'm not sure Doug Gillin is looked at it from either of these perspectives.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by AppStateMtneer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:23 pm

AppinVA wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:43 pm
We just need a plan, a plan, to get us to 30,000 fixed seats should that again become the cutoff for FBS membership. That can include the North End Zone facility to get us to 25,000, and something that could be ready to go in the South End Zone should the need arise. Until then, moving the grass hill inward when we're able, is a good option.

I'm also in favor of a beer garden if we can legally do it. And if not, a plan to add one should the law change.
Step 1. Remove track
Step 2. Remove lower east side seats
Step 3. Move field slightly to the west side (home)
Step 4. Build new lower east side section expanded to the field and at a height up to the current top of the east section


Gain 20ish? rows of seating on the east side the full length of the field/keep the hill/Gets fans closer on both sides/no lowering of the field necessary.

Join Yosef and make it happen. Fact of the matter is DG isn't doing anything until we get more season ticket holders...simple business... gotta bring more fans in for all games not just the "big ones".

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by EastHallApp » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:32 pm

yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:53 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:20 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:04 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Minus all the marquee games? I'm sorry but why should these not be included when judging demand?
They should be included. It's just that those are 3-4 sellouts out of 24 games.
Our stadium has approx 22k permanent seats. I think we can all agree on that. The temp seats last year were around 2500 last year. That would give us a seating capacity of approx 24,500 last year.

We exceed that 3 times in 2016. Are these not sellouts? Are these not cases where we have more fans than seats? We already have two cases of this in 2017 with Wake and CCU, yet we are focusing on the attendance against possibly the worst program in college football.
If we don't sell at least all reserved seats, then no, that's not a sellout.

I could see two plausible definitions for a sellout at KBS. One would be where you truly cannot buy a ticket (e.g., Miami and Wake). That's an actual sellout.

You could also arguably call it a sellout if all reserved seats are sold. That's a little generous - generally when a game is sold out that means you can't buy any more tickets to it. But it at least allows you to credibly make your preferred argument that the GA ticketholders are "overflow" who are only in GA because there were no more reserved seats available. That's the case with Coastal, and maybe for Family Day last year.

Unless I'm mistaken, no other game in the past four years meets either standard.
If we have 24,500 seat, we sale 28,000 tickets, but 500 actual seats are empty, you would not call this a sellout?

So if a true sellout is 34,685 than we were 25% below capacity last year, not 13% over capacity?

I'm not sure Doug Gillin is looked at it from either of these perspectives.
Practically speaking I don't think we'd be likely to have 28,000 attendance without selling out reserved seats, or very close to it. If we were hitting that number frequently this would be a different discussion.

34,685 required some special arrangements for that game that aren't in place usually. But I think it's fair to say KBS' true capacity is north of 30K.

I don't know what Gillin's thoughts are - I'd be interested to know - but I've heard little if anything from him on increasing seating capacity. I do know they're doing a survey on premium seating to gauge interest there.

Anyway, for all our debate, it sounds like you and I are actually pretty close on what we'd like to see done. Just different ideas on what the timeline should be.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by yosef13 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:36 pm

EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:32 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:53 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:20 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:04 pm


They should be included. It's just that those are 3-4 sellouts out of 24 games.
Our stadium has approx 22k permanent seats. I think we can all agree on that. The temp seats last year were around 2500 last year. That would give us a seating capacity of approx 24,500 last year.

We exceed that 3 times in 2016. Are these not sellouts? Are these not cases where we have more fans than seats? We already have two cases of this in 2017 with Wake and CCU, yet we are focusing on the attendance against possibly the worst program in college football.
If we don't sell at least all reserved seats, then no, that's not a sellout.

I could see two plausible definitions for a sellout at KBS. One would be where you truly cannot buy a ticket (e.g., Miami and Wake). That's an actual sellout.

You could also arguably call it a sellout if all reserved seats are sold. That's a little generous - generally when a game is sold out that means you can't buy any more tickets to it. But it at least allows you to credibly make your preferred argument that the GA ticketholders are "overflow" who are only in GA because there were no more reserved seats available. That's the case with Coastal, and maybe for Family Day last year.

Unless I'm mistaken, no other game in the past four years meets either standard.
If we have 24,500 seat, we sale 28,000 tickets, but 500 actual seats are empty, you would not call this a sellout?

So if a true sellout is 34,685 than we were 25% below capacity last year, not 13% over capacity?

I'm not sure Doug Gillin is looked at it from either of these perspectives.
Practically speaking I don't think we'd be likely to have 28,000 attendance without selling out reserved seats, or very close to it. If we were hitting that number frequently this would be a different discussion.

34,685 required some special arrangements for that game that aren't in place usually. But I think it's fair to say KBS' true capacity is north of 30K.

I don't know what Gillin's thoughts are - I'd be interested to know - but I've heard little if anything from him on increasing seating capacity. I do know they're doing a survey on premium seating to gauge interest there.

Anyway, for all our debate, it sounds like you and I are actually pretty close on what we'd like to see done. Just different ideas on what the timeline should be.
No doubt. In time we'll see it happen. Looking forward to a packed KBS vs Wake!

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Saint3333 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:20 pm

Doug has mentioned he'd like to see the majority of permanent seating be filled with season ticket holders before adding general seating and the next priority would be premium seating.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Yosef10 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:45 am

bcoach wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:59 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:55 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:38 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:34 pm
Rekdiver wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:53 am
Just curious why people sitting on the hill dont move to the empty east side stands after the game starts.
It is tough sitting on that slope.
It's mostly students on the hill for all the games I went to while at App. I stood there probably every game because the student section was full by the time we got in there.

Actually, the one time (Liberty, yikes) our group sat on the East side we were told to sit down and not be so loud by the old folks (apologies to the cool old folks) behind us. App games can be a strange football environment sometimes...
And we wonder why our students leave early. The student section looks like a can of sardines. We need to work on this. I'm not sure how much more proof is needed.
JT made a mention in an earlier post, but the students down there are there more for socialization purposes and convenience really. It's hard getting room for a big group of you don't get there early.

And to your point about students leaving at half - I know it's not up to App but I guarantee you if there was a beer garden somewhere in that stadium with views of the field you could solve a very large chunk of the problem of people leaving at half. Some may worry that with beer being sold in stadium that will lead to all sorts of foolishness with college students. So far at Ohio State the numbers are proving otherwise: https://www.thelantern.com/2017/09/ohio ... hol-sales/

On top of keeping people at the games that could provide some much needed cash for the Athletic Department.

In today's attention economy every business, and that's what the athletic department is, is competing that commodity. You have to a give most 18-22 year olds a reason to be there other than just football. Just how it is.
Probably not a good idea to invite 18 - 20yr olds into a beer garden
Well, duh.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by bcoach » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:17 am

Well read your post

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Rick83 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:43 am

To me, resource restrictions aside (which obviously DG and staff have to factor in), we're not serving our current demand. The hill should be considered just for overflow for the big games like WFU, UNC or the Sun Belt Championship game we're going to host next year. We've had many games in the 30k range of attendance and as people get used to the new teams we're playing, and the regional schools we're scheduling, I believe that'll become our average. Again, let the hill be overflow (not sure how to make that happen) and let's get some games north of 40K in attendance. I hate being capped at 35K, we're going to be bumping up against that more than you think with regional competition. Just my worthless opinion.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Appftw » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:43 am

Just when I thought we couldn't possibly nitpick anymore, we have a poster accusing another of advocating underage drinking.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:56 am

Just read an article that showed average attendance for schools last year. We were just over 26k (22% increase). We were above Kansas and Marshall just to name a few. We were only about 300 below Wake. Lots of P5 schools are in the 28-32k range. Someone check my math but don't we have about 24k regular seating? Add in the bleachers and we are at about 27k? Then kick in the grass seating. Doesn't that get us close to 30k? In my mind if we had say, 1k in added premium seating, keep the bleachers at a lower price we could routinely accommodate 30k. Games like Marshall and ECU would certainly get us in the 35k range. People throw out numbers like 45k. Seems like a stretch. I was at the Coastal game years back (might have been Corey Lynch's freshman year as a point of reference). Announced crowd was close to 30k. I recall looking around at a good bit of aluminum thinking that there was no way.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Yosef84 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:19 am

EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:20 pm
EastHallApp wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:04 pm
yosef13 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:58 pm

Minus all the marquee games? I'm sorry but why should these not be included when judging demand?
They should be included. It's just that those are 3-4 sellouts out of 24 games.
Our stadium has approx 22k permanent seats. I think we can all agree on that. The temp seats last year were around 2500 last year. That would give us a seating capacity of approx 24,500 last year.

We exceed that 3 times in 2016. Are these not sellouts? Are these not cases where we have more fans than seats? We already have two cases of this in 2017 with Wake and CCU, yet we are focusing on the attendance against possibly the worst program in college football.
If we don't sell at least all reserved seats, then no, that's not a sellout.

I could see two plausible definitions for a sellout at KBS. One would be where you truly cannot buy a ticket (e.g., Miami and Wake). That's an actual sellout.

You could also arguably call it a sellout if all reserved seats are sold. That's a little generous - generally when a game is sold out that means you can't buy any more tickets to it. But it at least allows you to credibly make your preferred argument that the GA ticketholders are "overflow" who are only in GA because there were no more reserved seats available. That's the case with Coastal, and maybe for Family Day last year.

Unless I'm mistaken, no other game in the past four years meets either standard.
I understand your logic, but can't say that I agree with the "unable to buy tickets" criteria. On another thread, I threw out that I thought attendance > published capacity should be considered a "sellout" but I do agree with your comment about reserved seats. My suggestion is that we consider any game where all reserved seats are sold and attendance exceeds published capacity a sellout. Maybe the semantics are tripping people up so we should just call it an "overflow" crowd until we reach the 34+ where no tickets can be sold. I'm not really concerned with semantics.

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Re: Low Attendance?

Unread post by Yosef84 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:33 am

bigdaddyg wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:56 am
Just read an article that showed average attendance for schools last year. We were just over 26k (22% increase). We were above Kansas and Marshall just to name a few. We were only about 300 below Wake. Lots of P5 schools are in the 28-32k range. Someone check my math but don't we have about 24k regular seating? Add in the bleachers and we are at about 27k? Then kick in the grass seating. Doesn't that get us close to 30k? In my mind if we had say, 1k in added premium seating, keep the bleachers at a lower price we could routinely accommodate 30k. Games like Marshall and ECU would certainly get us in the 35k range. People throw out numbers like 45k. Seems like a stretch. I was at the Coastal game years back (might have been Corey Lynch's freshman year as a point of reference). Announced crowd was close to 30k. I recall looking around at a good bit of aluminum thinking that there was no way.
No, we are at about 22K and we get to about 24,050 (published capacity) with the bleachers. The rest is grass seating / standing room.

Personally, I don't think that we need to shoot for 40K or higher. Replacing the temporary bleachers with actual stands would more than triple that section if done correctly and still leave the bank for overflow.

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