North End Zone project update

[yosef13]

There have been empty seats at every game for the last several years outside of Miami and Wake. Gillin has said seat expansion isn't needed but the club boxes and seats are absolutely needed. Is he misinformed?

There have been plenty of games that are over our listed seating capacity, however. 30k for Coastal, but we had empty seats? I think we could pull in the same numbers we used to pull in FCS if we make KBS just a little more of a destination stadium.

On a kinda related side note: I think our stadium has outgrown the hill in its current form. The hill, at its furthest point in the center, is about 40 yards away from the end zone. It badly detracts from our overall atmosphere to have fans that far away from the action in a relatively small stadium. Re-grading the hill could go a long way to increasing the energy in the stadium, IMO, if it can be done within our budget. I’m going to email Doug Gillin about it soon.

Yes we had empty seats for Coastal. Anyone that wanted a ticket to that game would've had no problem. That doesn't mean KBS was empty. It just means spending millions right now on seat expansion isn't necessary IMO.

This makes zero sense. Every seat was sold for that game. I don't care if they sat in their seat or on the toilet. They were there and they were taking up space.

Every seat being sold for the Coastal game doesn't justify spending millions on more seats right now. We'll need more seats when people routinely can't get inside KBS without going over face value for a ticket.

Taking the temps down and adding permanents is really not adding seats. If we build the north end zone with 2,500 generals, and 1,000 club, we've added 1,000 seats.

[APPARJ]

If you want to ignore attendance data, fine, but when you have temporary seats and porta johns in an endzone, you have a capacity issue. That's just common sense.

Yes, the cost should always be considered. So let's use some hypotheticals for arguments sake.

The overall campaign was advertised to be 60mm. Let's say 50mm goes to the north end zone. How much does 2k to 3k field level seating cost? It can't be more than about 5mm. That's only about 10% of the total project.

I have a hard time believing we can't afford to attached a few thousand seats to the back of a 88,000 square foot facility.

I do ignore the inflated attendance numbers. You should too. The data I won't ignore is the higher demand for club boxes vs. general admission seats.

They may not sweat 5MM at some P5 programs but shelling out that much for 3K general admission seats that won't always be full at $30-$40 per ticket is very expensive for App State.

It appears that you are ignoring the current situation the north end zone and hill too.

If you don't improve the fan experience for people, they will stop coming. The hill and north endzone seem to empty out faster than any other areas of the stadium. No coincidence there.

There is demand for club and GA. We can either address both or not. We have an approximate budget of 50mm. Make it happen.

That is true. The endzone empties bc it mainly consists of students who are stupid and leave games early regardless of the score. The hill empties early because it's a miserable existence sitting on the hill. Which investment will give App State the best return: enhancing the experience for those that will give and have given a LOT of money or enhancing the experience for the hill?

They will benefit from both. They will benefit financially by providing high end alum with needed club seats, and they with benefit the gameday atmosphere by providing fans in the north end zone, hill, and over crowded student section with a comfortable atmosphere that they deserve. I don't think the answer is focus on the money and ignore everyone else. The answer should be focus on all of our fans. There are needs that are not being met, in club and general. We have an opportunity to make it better for both. I hope it happens.

That's a non-answer to a question that has a real answer. App State has limited resources and should invest in a way that produces a great return. Pleasing everyone equally isn't an option. That said, I'm confident there are ways to make measured improvements in game day experience for everyone without breaking the bank. I'm sure we can agree on that point.

[APPARJ]

There have been plenty of games that are over our listed seating capacity, however. 30k for Coastal, but we had empty seats? I think we could pull in the same numbers we used to pull in FCS if we make KBS just a little more of a destination stadium.

On a kinda related side note: I think our stadium has outgrown the hill in its current form. The hill, at its furthest point in the center, is about 40 yards away from the end zone. It badly detracts from our overall atmosphere to have fans that far away from the action in a relatively small stadium. Re-grading the hill could go a long way to increasing the energy in the stadium, IMO, if it can be done within our budget. I’m going to email Doug Gillin about it soon.

Yes we had empty seats for Coastal. Anyone that wanted a ticket to that game would've had no problem. That doesn't mean KBS was empty. It just means spending millions right now on seat expansion isn't necessary IMO.

This makes zero sense. Every seat was sold for that game. I don't care if they sat in their seat or on the toilet. They were there and they were taking up space.

Every seat being sold for the Coastal game doesn't justify spending millions on more seats right now. We'll need more seats when people routinely can't get inside KBS without going over face value for a ticket.

Taking the temps down and adding permanents is really not adding seats. If we build the north end zone with 2,500 generals, and 1,000 club, we've added 1,000 seats.

Is the plan to add 2500 generals + 1000 club?

[CLTAPP92]

Agree the project needs to have future expansion in mind.

Would curving our lower decks like this work to bring seats closer to the field without going down? Not certain of feasibility, but if the North End Zone project contemplates future mods, maybe something similar would be possible. Done in phases following the End Zone project including the hill re-grading, you'd remodel the lower west stands, then lower east followed by upper level re-builds. ( Obvious Disclaimer: Not a graphic artist - just cut and pasting to visualize the concept.)

[yosef13]

I do ignore the inflated attendance numbers. You should too. The data I won't ignore is the higher demand for club boxes vs. general admission seats.

They may not sweat 5MM at some P5 programs but shelling out that much for 3K general admission seats that won't always be full at $30-$40 per ticket is very expensive for App State.

It appears that you are ignoring the current situation the north end zone and hill too.

If you don't improve the fan experience for people, they will stop coming. The hill and north endzone seem to empty out faster than any other areas of the stadium. No coincidence there.

There is demand for club and GA. We can either address both or not. We have an approximate budget of 50mm. Make it happen.

That is true. The endzone empties bc it mainly consists of students who are stupid and leave games early regardless of the score. The hill empties early because it's a miserable existence sitting on the hill. Which investment will give App State the best return: enhancing the experience for those that will give and have given a LOT of money or enhancing the experience for the hill?

They will benefit from both. They will benefit financially by providing high end alum with needed club seats, and they with benefit the gameday atmosphere by providing fans in the north end zone, hill, and over crowded student section with a comfortable atmosphere that they deserve. I don't think the answer is focus on the money and ignore everyone else. The answer should be focus on all of our fans. There are needs that are not being met, in club and general. We have an opportunity to make it better for both. I hope it happens.

That's a non-answer to a question that has a real answer. App State has limited resources and should invest in a way that produces a great return. Pleasing everyone equally isn't an option. That said, I'm confident there are ways to make measured improvements in game day experience for everyone without breaking the bank. I'm sure we can agree on that point.

Obviously the club seats have a higher ROI. Your question seemed rhetorical in nature.

We do have limited resources, but we have a massive budget for this project that should be able to cover the general seats. If we don't do it now, it could cost us double in 10 years.

We did not expand enough in the last 70's. We did not expand enough in 2008. Let's not make the same mistake in 2018.

Emagine how much money we would have saved if we expanded the east side in the late 70's.

[WVAPPeer]

Hey, you guys remember a couple of years ago when we had people on this board profess without any leeway that we WOULD NEVER get a P5 program to Boone until we made major stadium seating upgrades??? -

[Boone Goon]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

[APPARJ]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

[Boone Goon]

Agree the project needs to have future expansion in mind.

Would curving our lower decks like this work to bring seats closer to the field without going down? Not certain of feasibility, but if the North End Zone project contemplates future mods, maybe something similar would be possible. Done in phases following the End Zone project including the hill re-grading, you'd remodel the lower west stands, then lower east followed by upper level re-builds. ( Obvious Disclaimer: Not a graphic artist - just cut and pasting to visualize the concept.)

KB123.jpg

KB456.jpg

I appreciate the effort on this. Not sure how feasible it is with the current footprint and budget. The one idea I've heard that makes sense to me, is extending the 2nd level on the East side all the way forward to the field. If it would eliminate 8-10' of track space, bringing fans closer to the field it makes sense. If not, then cover the track and bring in the endzones through regrading the hill and the new North Endzone project. But until our season ticket sales eclipse 10K I wouldn't add any more permanent seats.

[APPARJ]

It appears that you are ignoring the current situation the north end zone and hill too.

If you don't improve the fan experience for people, they will stop coming. The hill and north endzone seem to empty out faster than any other areas of the stadium. No coincidence there.

There is demand for club and GA. We can either address both or not. We have an approximate budget of 50mm. Make it happen.

That is true. The endzone empties bc it mainly consists of students who are stupid and leave games early regardless of the score. The hill empties early because it's a miserable existence sitting on the hill. Which investment will give App State the best return: enhancing the experience for those that will give and have given a LOT of money or enhancing the experience for the hill?

They will benefit from both. They will benefit financially by providing high end alum with needed club seats, and they with benefit the gameday atmosphere by providing fans in the north end zone, hill, and over crowded student section with a comfortable atmosphere that they deserve. I don't think the answer is focus on the money and ignore everyone else. The answer should be focus on all of our fans. There are needs that are not being met, in club and general. We have an opportunity to make it better for both. I hope it happens.

That's a non-answer to a question that has a real answer. App State has limited resources and should invest in a way that produces a great return. Pleasing everyone equally isn't an option. That said, I'm confident there are ways to make measured improvements in game day experience for everyone without breaking the bank. I'm sure we can agree on that point.

Obviously the club seats have a higher ROI. Your question seemed rhetorical in nature.

We do have limited resources, but we have a massive budget for this project that should be able to cover the general seats. If we don't do it now, it could cost us double in 10 years.

We did not expand enough in the last 70's. We did not expand enough in 2008. Let's not make the same mistake in 2018.

Emagine how much money we would have saved if we expanded the east side in the late 70's.

I still don't see how we didn't expand enough in 2008. There have been 2 games in since 2008 with tickets above face value in the secondary market. KBS suits us extremely well. Now the north endzone facility will draw more big money. All positive.

[yosef13]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

Coastal gallery. Looks packed to me.

http://www.appstatesports.com/galleries/?path=football

[yosef13]

That is true. The endzone empties bc it mainly consists of students who are stupid and leave games early regardless of the score. The hill empties early because it's a miserable existence sitting on the hill. Which investment will give App State the best return: enhancing the experience for those that will give and have given a LOT of money or enhancing the experience for the hill?

They will benefit from both. They will benefit financially by providing high end alum with needed club seats, and they with benefit the gameday atmosphere by providing fans in the north end zone, hill, and over crowded student section with a comfortable atmosphere that they deserve. I don't think the answer is focus on the money and ignore everyone else. The answer should be focus on all of our fans. There are needs that are not being met, in club and general. We have an opportunity to make it better for both. I hope it happens.

That's a non-answer to a question that has a real answer. App State has limited resources and should invest in a way that produces a great return. Pleasing everyone equally isn't an option. That said, I'm confident there are ways to make measured improvements in game day experience for everyone without breaking the bank. I'm sure we can agree on that point.

Obviously the club seats have a higher ROI. Your question seemed rhetorical in nature.

We do have limited resources, but we have a massive budget for this project that should be able to cover the general seats. If we don't do it now, it could cost us double in 10 years.

We did not expand enough in the last 70's. We did not expand enough in 2008. Let's not make the same mistake in 2018.

Emagine how much money we would have saved if we expanded the east side in the late 70's.

I still don't see how we didn't expand enough in 2008. There have been 2 games in since 2008 with tickets above face value in the secondary market. KBS suits us extremely well. Now the north endzone facility will draw more big money. All positive.

Fake news. I have been a season ticket holder since 2008. We have 4 in club and 2 on the east. I have made money every year on the two east seats. That would be hard to do if there have only been 2 games since 2008 with tickets selling over face. The only game I did not make money on this year was SSU.

[APPARJ]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

Coastal gallery. Looks packed to me.

http://www.appstatesports.com/galleries/?path=football

Yes. It was packed. Great crowd. Yet I was able to give away tickets.

[APPARJ]

They will benefit from both. They will benefit financially by providing high end alum with needed club seats, and they with benefit the gameday atmosphere by providing fans in the north end zone, hill, and over crowded student section with a comfortable atmosphere that they deserve. I don't think the answer is focus on the money and ignore everyone else. The answer should be focus on all of our fans. There are needs that are not being met, in club and general. We have an opportunity to make it better for both. I hope it happens.

That's a non-answer to a question that has a real answer. App State has limited resources and should invest in a way that produces a great return. Pleasing everyone equally isn't an option. That said, I'm confident there are ways to make measured improvements in game day experience for everyone without breaking the bank. I'm sure we can agree on that point.

Obviously the club seats have a higher ROI. Your question seemed rhetorical in nature.

We do have limited resources, but we have a massive budget for this project that should be able to cover the general seats. If we don't do it now, it could cost us double in 10 years.

We did not expand enough in the last 70's. We did not expand enough in 2008. Let's not make the same mistake in 2018.

Emagine how much money we would have saved if we expanded the east side in the late 70's.

I still don't see how we didn't expand enough in 2008. There have been 2 games in since 2008 with tickets above face value in the secondary market. KBS suits us extremely well. Now the north endzone facility will draw more big money. All positive.

Fake news. I have been a season ticket holder since 2008. We have 4 in club and 2 on the east. I have made money every year on the two east seats. That would be hard to do if there have only been 2 games since 2008 with tickets selling over face. The only game I did not make money on this year was SSU.

First of all, congrats on making money. I'm pro-commerce to the core.

Second, people have asked me about buying tickets for virtually every home game since 2011. The only two games that I couldn't find either free or at/below face were for Miami and Wake. I'm sure I'm not the only person with that story.

EDIT: Also, I think it's awesome that people can find affordable ways to get into virtually every home game. Like I said, I think KBS suits us very well right now.

[yosef13]

That's a non-answer to a question that has a real answer. App State has limited resources and should invest in a way that produces a great return. Pleasing everyone equally isn't an option. That said, I'm confident there are ways to make measured improvements in game day experience for everyone without breaking the bank. I'm sure we can agree on that point.

Obviously the club seats have a higher ROI. Your question seemed rhetorical in nature.

We do have limited resources, but we have a massive budget for this project that should be able to cover the general seats. If we don't do it now, it could cost us double in 10 years.

We did not expand enough in the last 70's. We did not expand enough in 2008. Let's not make the same mistake in 2018.

Emagine how much money we would have saved if we expanded the east side in the late 70's.

I still don't see how we didn't expand enough in 2008. There have been 2 games in since 2008 with tickets above face value in the secondary market. KBS suits us extremely well. Now the north endzone facility will draw more big money. All positive.

Fake news. I have been a season ticket holder since 2008. We have 4 in club and 2 on the east. I have made money every year on the two east seats. That would be hard to do if there have only been 2 games since 2008 with tickets selling over face. The only game I did not make money on this year was SSU.

First of all, congrats on making money. I'm pro-commerce to the core.

Second, people have asked me about buying tickets for virtually every home game since 2011. The only two games that I couldn't find either free or at/below face were for Miami and Wake. I'm sure I'm not the only person with that story.

EDIT: Also, I think it's awesome that people can find affordable ways to get into virtually every home game. Like I said, I think KBS suits us very well right now.

My east seats are on the 50 with Rivers St parking, which helps their profitability.

KBS suits us very well, 50% of the time. Three games a year it's controlled chaos.

I kind of like to compare it to our school system. Instead of building larger enough schools, we settle on dumping trailers in the front yard to house our students.

That has been the approach we've taken with KBS. Instead of seats and bathrooms, we'll settle on temporaries and porta johns. Hopefully this will be addressed this go around.

Do you know we have had porta johns inside KBS for about 12 years now. Not a good look.

[yosef13]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

Coastal gallery. Looks packed to me.

http://www.appstatesports.com/galleries/?path=football

Yes. It was packed. Great crowd. Yet I was able to give away tickets.

Try stubhub next time. I made good money on that game.

[Yosef10]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

Coastal gallery. Looks packed to me.

http://www.appstatesports.com/galleries/?path=football

Yes. It was packed. Great crowd. Yet I was able to give away tickets.

Try stubhub next time. I made good money on that game.

Lol i found tickets for $17 that game....on stubhub.

[APPARJ]

Are we really needing to explain the difference between sold tickets and actual fans in attendance??

Coastal didn't have anywhere close to 30K in attendance!

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

Coastal gallery. Looks packed to me.

http://www.appstatesports.com/galleries/?path=football

Yes. It was packed. Great crowd. Yet I was able to give away tickets.

Try stubhub next time. I made good money on that game.

I'm referring to giving other people's tickets upon their request. As to my own tickets, to each their own but I've never felt compelled to make money off my tickets personally. Most of the time I find someone that wants to go and I'm happy to give it to them so more can enjoy KBS.

[yosef13]

I had people ask me to help them give tickets away for that game too.

BUT!!! That only means spending millions on more seats isn't necessary. The Coastal game was well attended and had a good atmosphere for SBC era standards.

Coastal gallery. Looks packed to me.

http://www.appstatesports.com/galleries/?path=football

Yes. It was packed. Great crowd. Yet I was able to give away tickets.

Try stubhub next time. I made good money on that game.

I'm referring to giving other people's tickets upon their request. As to my own tickets, to each their own but I've never felt compelled to make money off my tickets personally. Most of the time I find someone that wants to go and I'm happy to give it to them so more can enjoy KBS.

Yep, I bought the two on the east as an investment, and I sell for what the market is willing to pay. It has been a good investment and helps funds my Yosef contribution. Just felt I should disclose that since I'm sure people are lining up to take shots at me for making money off of ticket sales. People don't seem to like that around here.

[APPARJ]

Obviously the club seats have a higher ROI. Your question seemed rhetorical in nature.

We do have limited resources, but we have a massive budget for this project that should be able to cover the general seats. If we don't do it now, it could cost us double in 10 years.

We did not expand enough in the last 70's. We did not expand enough in 2008. Let's not make the same mistake in 2018.

Emagine how much money we would have saved if we expanded the east side in the late 70's.

I still don't see how we didn't expand enough in 2008. There have been 2 games in since 2008 with tickets above face value in the secondary market. KBS suits us extremely well. Now the north endzone facility will draw more big money. All positive.

Fake news. I have been a season ticket holder since 2008. We have 4 in club and 2 on the east. I have made money every year on the two east seats. That would be hard to do if there have only been 2 games since 2008 with tickets selling over face. The only game I did not make money on this year was SSU.

First of all, congrats on making money. I'm pro-commerce to the core.

Second, people have asked me about buying tickets for virtually every home game since 2011. The only two games that I couldn't find either free or at/below face were for Miami and Wake. I'm sure I'm not the only person with that story.

EDIT: Also, I think it's awesome that people can find affordable ways to get into virtually every home game. Like I said, I think KBS suits us very well right now.

My east seats are on the 50 with Rivers St parking, which helps their profitability.

KBS suits us very well, 50% of the time. Three games a year it's controlled chaos.

I kind of like to compare it to our school system. Instead of building larger enough schools, we settle on dumping trailers in the front yard to house our students.

That has been the approach we've taken with KBS. Instead of seats and bathrooms, we'll settle on temporaries and porta johns. Hopefully this will be addressed this go around.

Do you know we have had porta johns inside KBS for about 12 years now. Not a good look.

I've been to nearly 75 home games in the last 11 seasons and I've yet to notice porta johns. I'm not advocating for them, I just haven't noticed.

Also, I think it's unreasonable to say that 50% of the games are controlled chaos. Maybe that's true right before halftime in the aisles of the student section as they bowl over each other to leave KBS. But every P5 game I've gone to has been controlled chaos while exiting. It took nearly an hour to leave our parking lot at UGA 45 minutes AFTER it ended.

Even so, the indicator for needing KBS expansion isn't controlled chaos (because every major program has real controlled chaos after every game). In my opinion, the indicator will be when a large number of people routinely want tickets but aren't able to buy them without paying over face value.

Buying tickets to see App State football isn't a problem today. Spending millions to solve a problem that doesn't exist is a poor investment.