Transition

[Mjohn1988]

Hello everyone! I'm sure someone has asked before and I may have missed it but I have a question regarding your transition from FCS to FBS. You guys have had a lot of success in the Sunbelt especially as of late and I am wondering what your opinions are on the move. I'm sure its easy for you to answer that its been great with your current success but what about the seasons where maybe your record lacked some luster. I am an NDSU Bison fan and we are currently riding a 32 game win streak and are like 123-8 since 2011 I believe and counting FBS games with no losses to the FBS. This topic is coming up a lot lately and am just curious as to what your overall thoughts are. Especially in the early years of your transition.

One of the hardest things to do and we’re still working on it is getting your fan base to understand what your playing for in the FBS. I guarantee you that at lest 50 percent of our fan base couldn’t name 4 or more teams in our conference. I was talking to a guy today who never misses a game and he still didn’t understand that we have a conference championship game. I mentioned the fact that we could have a game at home in December and he paused and said oh yeah, the playoffs. I loved the FCS playoffs but I wouldn’t go back. I do wonder if our fan base can take a couple of bad years. Right now we’re flying high with national exposure and 2 P5 wins. Another thing that is kind of frustrating is that many of our fans base the success of the season on our P5 games and nothing else. You guys have built a program that can make the move. But make no mistake most of this is about how much money you can bring to the conference you join. We really wanted in conference USA and instead of us they took UNC Charlotte. They had never played a single game at the time but their located in a large TV market. In the end the Sunbelt has worked out well for us but it opened my eyes to what was really important and it ain’t good football, it’s money.

[Woodstovegang]

Hello everyone! I'm sure someone has asked before and I may have missed it but I have a question regarding your transition from FCS to FBS. You guys have had a lot of success in the Sunbelt especially as of late and I am wondering what your opinions are on the move. I'm sure its easy for you to answer that its been great with your current success but what about the seasons where maybe your record lacked some luster. I am an NDSU Bison fan and we are currently riding a 32 game win streak and are like 123-8 since 2011 I believe and counting FBS games with no losses to the FBS. This topic is coming up a lot lately and am just curious as to what your overall thoughts are. Especially in the early years of your transition.

It starts with culture and belief that you have something that no one else has. Most of us alumni and fans that were for the move recognized where the FCS was going and knew we had to make the move before it was too late. The believers knew we had a special culture at App State and knew if we could maintain that culture that we could compete at the FBS level. The fact that we have reached the Top 25 this early doesn’t surprise me, what does surprise me is the success we have had leading up to this point. I thought it would take 4-5 years of recruiting and staffing to get to the level where we are winning consecutive bowl games and conference titles, not one year.

What will always be constant at App State will be the fans, alumni, and the culture that we all believe in. It’s our job as donors, season ticket holders, and alumni to continue to uphold our culture and teach it to every new recruiting class, every new coach/staff, and every young student. Once they adopt and believe in the “Today, I give my all....” mantra, their is no ceiling to their potential. You can take that mantra to your workplace, your little league team, your family and your church....it won’t let you down.

Go App State!

I truly believe the difference from us and Georgia Southern is the recruiting for future when we started from the FCS numbers. Find the base of the team and build to future. Yes, our first year was hard, but Sat made a decision to recruit to building a total game. I will always believe Jerry Moore would have done better but credit to what Sat did. Don't just fill the extra twenty scholarships; fill with future in mind. Ur program is very solid but stadium and conference travel is a problem.

[AppState89]

I could see you guys near if not at the top of the MAC right now. Your football program is very darn good and has been for years.

[ah59396]

I could see you guys near if not at the top of the MAC right now. Your football program is very darn good and has been for years.

This is purely my opinion, but I think the long term prospects of the MAC are not good.

A bunch of universities with declining enrollment, located in states hemorrhaging people to the west and southeast. The attendance of late has been historically putrid and I’m curious how long many of their programs can survive if they continue on the downward trend of enrollment + no one going to games. FBS football is expensive. Joining the MAC IMO is a nail in your own coffin.

The MAC is the new WAC.

[moonshine]

I echo what most have said, FCS playoff runs were awesome and I wouldn't trade them for anything. To me, there is nothing better than playoffs to decide a champion and hopefully one day, the FBS will adopt an expansion that gives App the opportunity to make it.

NDSU could move up to the MAC or MWC and compete immediately. What the Bison have done is unprecedented. The biggest downsides are your dome (need more seats) and location (travel $$$, specifically non-revenue sports). If NDSU has the space, scrap the IPF and build a new 30k seat dome and use the current dome as the IPF. I'd love to see NDSU and Montana move to the MWC so that Boise actually has competition outside of SDSU and App can schedule you all in H-H OOC games.

I know this will not be popular and I personally prefer not to play FCS teams if possible but if App is going to play programs from the FCS, I'd love to schedule the Bison, the Griz and the Dukes. Obviously it probably won't ever happen as you all can command much more money from B1G/BXII teams than what App can pay. Some fans will disagree because whether it's the Bison or Savannah St., the FCS win counts the same. I just prefer to see strong competition from programs with similar culture. To me, that was one of the biggest points of moving up, to play and host better teams, never running scared (anyone, anytime, anywhere--obviously not anywhere with FCS as SB doesn't allow teams to play at FCS stadiums). All 3 of those FCS programs would bring fans to KBS and make the environment electric although I could do without the Dukes' streamers.

[Apptrain]

Wouldn’t trade away the FCS years for anything.


Would never go back.


I love that this administration had the guts to go for it. We could have faltered, we still can. I’m just glad we are willing to take the risk.

I think this pretty much sums up 99.9% of the fanbase.

Couldn’t have summed it up better.

[rbarthle17]

Hey Bison. Some may have already stated these things, but here are my thoughts: First, you will never get 100% buy in from alumni and boosters. There will always be those that like the status quo. And you are going to need buy in because of item #2: money. Your booster donations and corporate sponsorships are going to have to rise big time, and stay up there. Idaho has broken the barrier now of dropping back DOWN to FCS, so it's now something that has precedent. Also, your facilities will have to grow, particularly your football seating. Being in a dome is that even possible?

As for pros/cons, there are no real cons for us at this point, but at this point we have basically become the gold standard for transitions. As in, we are the exception and not the rule. Could NDSU be one too? I have no idea of the politics of the area but it seems to me that you'd basically be THE game in town, much like Boise is for Idaho. That is big time in your favor. And you 100% must have a conference invite. The NCAA has banned move up without one. The only conference that makes sense to me is the MW, where are they in terms of interest in expansion?

As for missing the playoffs, I thought I would but I don't so much. Some wise people here stated at the beginning that the regular season games we would be able to get would make up for it, and even though I doubted that those people were 100% correct. As great as our FCS title teams were, the teams we have had the last 4 years would wipe the floor with them, and our recruiting has been better than ever.

Is it perfect? No. I wish the Sun Belt had more flexible tie ins for bowl games. It also must be said that while we have had great success in football, we've been putrid in mens basketball, decent in women's basketball, and average at best in olympic sports (with only few exceptions). I'd like to see us become more than just a football school, and maybe someday we will.

Your travel budget will increase a lot since I doubt you'd have any drivable conference games even in the MW. And your remoteness may play into a reason getting that conference invite is tougher than thought. But I think at the minimum your school should declare some intentions, do a study, and see if you get some interest from FBS conferences.

[TheMoody1]

And you 100% must have a conference invite. The NCAA has banned move up without one.

Liberty moved up as an Independent.

[hapapp]

"And you 100% must have a conference invite. The NCAA has banned move up without one."

Not 100% as Liberty moved up with an NCAA waiver.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?P ... MID=222571

[BeauFoster]

"And you 100% must have a conference invite. The NCAA has banned move up without one."

Not 100% as Liberty moved up with an NCAA waiver.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?P ... MID=222571

While is is not an NCAA hard/fast rule (hence the ability to get a waiver), I'd have to think that in NDSU's case, a conference home would be a near 100% need (provided non-football could remain in another conference). Trying to schedule 6 home games to Fargo instead of 2 + conference foes would be extremely difficult, as a bunch of schools would duck them for competitive reasons and play it off as "it's too hard to get there". Then there's the whole reward for playing FBS ball, i.e. a bowl game. Without an auto tie-in, there would be no guarantee of getting an invite, which is what the fan base will clamor to see if there are no playoffs. NDSU is a proud group of fans and will expect post season play.

[hapapp]

"And you 100% must have a conference invite. The NCAA has banned move up without one."

Not 100% as Liberty moved up with an NCAA waiver.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?P ... MID=222571

While is is not an NCAA hard/fast rule (hence the ability to get a waiver), I'd have to think that in NDSU's case, a conference home would be a near 100% need (provided non-football could remain in another conference). Trying to schedule 6 home games to Fargo instead of 2 + conference foes would be extremely difficult, as a bunch of schools would duck them for competitive reasons and play it off as "it's too hard to get there". Then there's the whole reward for playing FBS ball, i.e. a bowl game. Without an auto tie-in, there would be no guarantee of getting an invite, which is what the fan base will clamor to see if there are no playoffs. NDSU is a proud group of fans and will expect post season play.

Fair points. It will be interesting to see Liberty's fate moving forward if no conference opens up for them.

[stafford]

Great thread, and I'm glad we made the move.

I think there was some name recognition in the SoCon as I knew people (work, church, family, friends) that went to other SoCon schools. Can't say I know many people from SunBelt schools.

But none of that matters when you have UNC and USC on your schedule. And everyone knows them.

[23Bison]

I appreciate all of the responses guys/gals!! My goal to joining your forum was to get some first hand thoughts and information from a fan base that has gone through this process and again I thank you for it.

My findings show that you guys appreciate the FCS years and titles but wouldn't go back from where you are in the Sun Belt and FBS.

[BeauFoster]

I appreciate all of the responses guys/gals!! My goal to joining your forum was to get some first hand thoughts and information from a fan base that has gone through this process and again I thank you for it.

My findings show that you guys appreciate the FCS years and titles but wouldn't go back from where you are in the Sun Belt and FBS.

Absolutely the case in my mind. FCS was great, I attended every National Championship game and have much of the memorabilia produced during that time still hanging on my walls. However, with our current success (and the future seeming to be bright), I wouldn't trade where we are now for anything (certainly not more FCS titles). Someone said on twitter a couple weeks ago that they can't see why App and other FCS teams make the jump - that we no longer play for anything. I replied that we play for conference championships, bowl games, and NY6 bids. The present is what you make of it. Is an FCS title really worth anything more than a bowl game bid/win? I don't know about anyone else, but to me it isn't.

There's a "little brother" syndrome among much of the FCS, which I never understood. I guess I don't strive for status quo, and I feel like I can always get better and challenge myself. I like that my school and athletic department have the same goals and vision.

[Yosef84]

"And you 100% must have a conference invite. The NCAA has banned move up without one."

Not 100% as Liberty moved up with an NCAA waiver.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?P ... MID=222571

Liberty was granted a waiver because the NCAA was not willing to risk suit for religious discrimination. Liberty's "politics" combined with extremely DEEP pockets created a product that the existing G5 conferences didn't want. Those deep pockets also made it very dangerous to deny their request for waiver because they have the resources to fight the fight. NDSU is not in the same situation. I think most conferences would be open to considering them if not for their location. The MAC or MWC would probably be their only logistically feasible conference options but they are an outlier even in those.

[EastHallApp]

Someone said on twitter a couple weeks ago that they can't see why App and other FCS teams make the jump - that we no longer play for anything. I replied that we play for conference championships, bowl games, and NY6 bids.

I had a friend who's a Wake fan ask me a few years back if I thought we should move up, and that it seemed like playing at a level where you had a legit shot at a national title every year seemed pretty good.

I told him I agreed to some extent, but then turned the question around on him: Given that Wake also can't seriously contend for a national title in football, would he support them moving down to FCS?

While everyone can dream, in practice I'd say roughly 75% or more of FBS is in that same boat - their ceiling (more realistic for some than others) is a non-playoff NY6 bid. And I'm pretty sure many of them who say FCS teams shouldn't move up would not want their own teams to move down.

[Black Saturday]

[The Rock]

I appreciate all of the responses guys/gals!! My goal to joining your forum was to get some first hand thoughts and information from a fan base that has gone through this process and again I thank you for it.

My findings show that you guys appreciate the FCS years and titles but wouldn't go back from where you are in the Sun Belt and FBS.

Late to the thread, so I apologize if any of this has already been said.
1) The right AD to navigate this is the biggest key.
The AD that moved us towards FBS is not our current one, or the one who did 98% of the behind the scenes work that led to our success. You need someone with vision, big picture thinking, and the ability to motivate the base to provide funds for necessary FBS amenities.
2) The right coach. One who can adapt to recruiting at a higher level, and can build an FBS team in the right way. Satterfield took the right method in playing the most talented individual when you had to, red-shirting the ones you could, and only taking bare minimum JUCo transfers. You can load up on transfers and have more success immediately, but you will see a drop off from that decision in 1-2 yrs. (see georgia southern in that same time frame). It takes 3-5 years to get the right number of players in the 2-3 deep and get them experienced
3. Fan base has to buy in. Tickets will be more expensive. Traditional rivalries gone. Further travel for conference games most likely. Fan support (donations) must not drop off and really needs to grow. something we still struggle with.
4. Sacrificing Saturday games for weeknight matchups. Our biggest rivalry has been played on a thursday night ever since we joined the FBS. That hurts attendance, but TV contracts call the shots.
5. Patience- I know it has been said before, but there are 3 years where post season of any kind is impossible. That stinks and is hard to keep players motivated. especially in the last year of FCS. Again, getting the right players enough experience takes time too.
6. Keeping a coach. Depending on what your school's funds are and what conference you would join, you probably cant compete with 90% of P5 schools. That means a coaching carousel that is always frustrating for fans and players. See my first note for the importance of an AD.

While we are lucky to be in the position we are in, it would probably be better to get advice from other schools too, as we are (very fortunately) the exception in moving up, in terms of success.
WIth ND's history of success if anyone else can have a successful transition, I think you would have a good shot at it.

[ericsaid]

These are all very intriguing statements and I thank you for it. The one big glaring issue if a move up was ever on the table is that we will never be able to compete for a national title again.

Would it matter if you got home games against Minnesota, Boise State, BYU, or some other regionally or nationally intriguing teams? National Championship's are exciting but your excitement levels change. Even though App took a nice beating against Miami (which Satterfield seems to have a penchant for), that game began as exciting as a game as I've watched App play. Beating UNC and USC were big. Taking Number 9 Tennessee and Penn State to overtime were big. Actually having the depth to do this year in and year out is also a big motivation.

Some Sun Belt programs lack luster to the larger fan base when they shouldn't (Louisiana and Arkansas State) and the Georgia Southern games seems to have been moved permanently to Thursday's, but the ranking and national discussions as well as increased ceiling height make it all the more interesting. One desire by many would be expanded access New Years games and perhaps a more regional conference but most here expected the Sun Belt would be the first logical landing place.

[23Bison]

These are all very intriguing statements and I thank you for it. The one big glaring issue if a move up was ever on the table is that we will never be able to compete for a national title again.

Would it matter if you got home games against Minnesota, Boise State, BYU, or some other regionally or nationally intriguing teams? National Championship's are exciting but your excitement levels change. Even though App took a nice beating against Miami (which Satterfield seems to have a penchant for), that game began as exciting as a game as I've watched App play. Beating UNC and USC were big. Taking Number 9 Tennessee and Penn State to overtime were big. Actually having the depth to do this year in and year out is also a big motivation.

Some Sun Belt programs lack luster to the larger fan base when they shouldn't (Louisiana and Arkansas State) and the Georgia Southern games seems to have been moved permanently to Thursday's, but the ranking and national discussions as well as increased ceiling height make it all the more interesting. One desire by many would be expanded access New Years games and perhaps a more regional conference but most here expected the Sun Belt would be the first logical landing place.

I would like to think so. Playing teams like that at home would be something else indeed. There are a few things that I think need to get done first and that’s IPF and boosting the basketball programs. Then tackle the stadium issue.