P5 and the NCAA: These are the Days of Our Lives

[ah59396]

https://www.si.com/college/2020/08/01/p ... ships-2020


Feel free to read the article, but the gist is essentially:

The P5 holds enough power that it doesn’t really need the NCAA. And COVID has sort of accelerated this thought process. Everyone has known this break off is coming, is COVID the final catalyst that will do it?


So the questions I have are:


1. Where does that leave App State? I think it’ll be the P5 + friends (ND, BYU, UCF?, etc.). Do we get to be part of the club?

- if I had to put money on it I’d say we get left behind. Which could be bad. Less money involved. Probably even less bowl game choices. The perception of being in the “New FCS”/D2 returns. Likely impossible to host a P5 team.

2. Where do we want to be?

- I think we want to get lucky and make it into the club. Could we survive up there though? We would almost certainly be among the poorest of the poor. Also being in the G5 probably means we are forever a second tier football program. I can’t imagine it’s going to get any easier to “move up”. Though we’d probably be vastly more competitive.

[t4pizza]

I am still not sure that the P5 completely breaks away. Fact is that many schools in P5 need the G5 games to get bowl eligibility, without those games they have seemingly perpetual losing seasons. While the G5 schools need the payday of the P5, the P5 schools need the wins over the G5. It seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship at this time.

[Deano]

I know in the past few years a couple of the P5 conferences have floated the idea of only scheduling P5 games with no "cupcake" G5 and FCS games. Many thought this model could not work. Now with COVID the door is open for them to test this model out and I fear that they'll get it to work and teams like us will be left out of playing the big money and big attention games.

[kornegaylw]

So the to CFB Bluebloods could break away and just play themselves. They could get the money to work but like t4pizza said above there are so many mid-level and low level P5s that couldn't survive in that system.

If COVID does anything I hope it highlights the desire for more local regional P5/G5/Non-Conference match ups...Nobody wants to see NCSU play Ball State or New Mexico State...Or UNC play SDST...the fans paying for season tickets and donating to athletic departments want to see matchups with programs they recognize.

[ah59396]

I am still not sure that the P5 completely breaks away. Fact is that many schools in P5 need the G5 games to get bowl eligibility, without those games they have seemingly perpetual losing seasons. While the G5 schools need the payday of the P5, the P5 schools need the wins over the G5. It seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship at this time.

I think if they break away you’ll see a change in the bowl model as well and something much more like a pro league.

[NavyApp]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

[pop5app]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

As far as the academic question, they have a business model already available to them: UNC-CHeat!

[ah59396]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

Without the constraints of the NCAA they can do whatever they want.

I’ll give you an example, Collegiate Club Hockey.

Club Hockey is governed by the ACHA, a non-NCAA sanctioned league. The ACHA is a non-scholarship league that basically just creates structure for teams that represent each school.

Liberty has a D1 ACHA team that puts 4000 people in its stands and charges $5-$10 per game. They play 22-ish home games a season.

So they are taking in something like $500k-$600k on tickets alone. Where does that money go? Good question. They travel quite a bit and have a coaching staff and nice facilities but even still, half a million on tickets alone is insane.

I ran the App State hockey team on about $25k for an entire year.



Now imagine what a P5 football program could do with the money it generates.

[/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

Considering a very small portion go pro from a collegiate sport, I would expect the classes would still be required. Even if they leave the NCAA they will have to form some type of organization to moderate matters. I'm sure that organization would keep the education standard the same.

[NavyApp]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

Considering a very small portion go pro from a collegiate sport, I would expect the classes would still be required. Even if they leave the NCAA they will have to form some type of organization to moderate matters. I'm sure that organization would keep the education standard the same.

Not trying to disagree with you, just want to add to the thought process. What if instead of mandatory classes they are provided job training. Such as those that are shoe in for the pros get "tutored" in how to manage life as a professional athlete, everything from budgeting to nutrition. Those that wanted to take classes and earn a degree can but it wouldn't impact their eligibility on the field.

Here's another one: if the P5 broke away do you think the NCAA folds altogether? Yes the P5 only make up a small portion of members they do generate a bulk of the profits. Do you think anyone would care about March Madness if Cinderella didn't have any giants to slay?


Again this is all fun and games because it hasn't happened.

[/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

Considering a very small portion go pro from a collegiate sport, I would expect the classes would still be required. Even if they leave the NCAA they will have to form some type of organization to moderate matters. I'm sure that organization would keep the education standard the same.

Not trying to disagree with you, just want to add to the thought process. What if instead of mandatory classes they are provided job training. Such as those that are shoe in for the pros get "tutored" in how to manage life as a professional athlete, everything from budgeting to nutrition. Those that wanted to take classes and earn a degree can but it wouldn't impact their eligibility on the field.

Here's another one: if the P5 broke away do you think the NCAA folds altogether? Yes the P5 only make up a small portion of members they do generate a bulk of the profits. Do you think anyone would care about March Madness if Cinderella didn't have any giants to slay?


Again this is all fun and games because it hasn't happened.

Problem with the job training is what if a player has a career ending injury his senior year, yet he spend his first three or four years not taking the curriculum the university has outlined for a degree? Honestly I think the NCAA will cave to the P5 demands over time and players will be able to be paid, CFB playoffs will be expanded, and if desired by P5 schools, allow additional scholarships. One area the NCAA won't bend will be academics and I don't blame them one bit.

[NavyApp]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

Considering a very small portion go pro from a collegiate sport, I would expect the classes would still be required. Even if they leave the NCAA they will have to form some type of organization to moderate matters. I'm sure that organization would keep the education standard the same.

Not trying to disagree with you, just want to add to the thought process. What if instead of mandatory classes they are provided job training. Such as those that are shoe in for the pros get "tutored" in how to manage life as a professional athlete, everything from budgeting to nutrition. Those that wanted to take classes and earn a degree can but it wouldn't impact their eligibility on the field.

Here's another one: if the P5 broke away do you think the NCAA folds altogether? Yes the P5 only make up a small portion of members they do generate a bulk of the profits. Do you think anyone would care about March Madness if Cinderella didn't have any giants to slay?


Again this is all fun and games because it hasn't happened.

Problem with the job training is what if a player has a career ending injury his senior year, yet he spend his first three or four years not taking the curriculum the university has outlined for a degree? Honestly I think the NCAA will cave to the P5 demands over time and players will be able to be paid, CFB playoffs will be expanded, and if desired by P5 schools, allow additional scholarships. One area the NCAA won't bend will be academics and I don't blame them one bit.

I agree with you 100% in the fact that the NCAA will cave to basically anything the P5s want. They are the golden goose. To your point about the injury during the last year of eligibility, in my fantasy world where I'm concocting all of this it is run as a business and in the event of this situation the individual would either be given a severance package or allowed to transfer into the school at a reduced rate. In the immortal words of the enlightened philosopher Puff Daddy: It's all about the Benjamins.

[bigdaddyg]

I don’t think enough has been said about a very good point raised above. Every P5 school isn’t a “Power” school. I’m willing to bet that if you looked back at the record of every P5 over the past 5 seasons and take out FCS and G5 wins there are only a small percent with winning records. Are the fan bases at mediocre P5’s going to want to play nothing but P5’s every season? Most fans don’t really care how much money is rolling in if their team is perennially 4-8. Is Wake going to have a home non-conference slate of Ohio State, Alabama, Illinois and say, Ole Miss? Not likely. Do their fans want to witness beat downs from their P5 brethren every year? In reality there might be 10 schools who could theoretically separate and battle each year for supremacy in major college football. There are, by the same token probably 6 or so legit G5’s who could go at least .500 in the ACC, PAC 12 or maybe even the Big 10.

[NavyApp]

I don’t think enough has been said about a very good point raised above. Every P5 school isn’t a “Power” school. I’m willing to bet that if you looked back at the record of every P5 over the past 5 seasons and take out FCS and G5 wins there are only a small percent with winning records. Are the fan bases at mediocre P5’s going to want to play nothing but P5’s every season? Most fans don’t really care how much money is rolling in if their team is perennially 4-8. Is Wake going to have a home non-conference slate of Ohio State, Alabama, Illinois and say, Ole Miss? Not likely. Do their fans want to witness beat downs from their P5 brethren every year? In reality there might be 10 schools who could theoretically separate and battle each year for supremacy in major college football. There are, by the same token probably 6 or so legit G5’s who could go at least .500 in the ACC, PAC 12 or maybe even the Big 10.

To your point I do believe that the bottom tier P5 schools would accept the move away from the NCAA. The Kansas', Vandys, Rutgers', Boston College's, Oregon State's of the world know they will not be competing for national championships or even conference championships. But if they never had to play the G5 or FCS schools then they could never lose to them either. Their perceived superiority over the G5 and FCS remains intact so even if they have a 2 win season "at least they play against real opponents, not jv teams".

Again I don't foresee this coming to fruition but stranger things have happened.

[Seattleapp]

Here's a fun thought: if the P5s do decide to break away from the NCAA, do they increase their scholarship limits? What about payment to the student athletes? And most importantly do they "enforce" the academic side; ie do the kids even have to take classes?

Considering a very small portion go pro from a collegiate sport, I would expect the classes would still be required. Even if they leave the NCAA they will have to form some type of organization to moderate matters. I'm sure that organization would keep the education standard the same.

Not trying to disagree with you, just want to add to the thought process. What if instead of mandatory classes they are provided job training. Such as those that are shoe in for the pros get "tutored" in how to manage life as a professional athlete, everything from budgeting to nutrition. Those that wanted to take classes and earn a degree can but it wouldn't impact their eligibility on the field.

Here's another one: if the P5 broke away do you think the NCAA folds altogether? Yes the P5 only make up a small portion of members they do generate a bulk of the profits. Do you think anyone would care about March Madness if Cinderella didn't have any giants to slay?


Again this is all fun and games because it hasn't happened.

Problem with the job training is what if a player has a career ending injury his senior year, yet he spend his first three or four years not taking the curriculum the university has outlined for a degree? Honestly I think the NCAA will cave to the P5 demands over time and players will be able to be paid, CFB playoffs will be expanded, and if desired by P5 schools, allow additional scholarships. One area the NCAA won't bend will be academics and I don't blame them one bit.

I agree with you 100% in the fact that the NCAA will cave to basically anything the P5s want. They are the golden goose. To your point about the injury during the last year of eligibility, in my fantasy world where I'm concocting all of this it is run as a business and in the event of this situation the individual would either be given a severance package or allowed to transfer into the school at a reduced rate. In the immortal words of the enlightened philosopher Puff Daddy: It's all about the Benjamins.

If they are getting paid and their only ‘classes’ are how to manage the money, at what point does the university stand up and say we aren’t going to essentially have our names on the jersey of a minor league team that uses our facilities. I know the argument is that is what happens now to a degree but I still believe there are a lot of presidents and professors who won’t stand for it being that obvious. I’m not sure the universities would just go along with that so willingly. I can imagine a bunch of 19 year olds making bank and just rolling around the campus with zero pretense of getting an education or even following rules would breed resentment.

[NavyApp]

Considering a very small portion go pro from a collegiate sport, I would expect the classes would still be required. Even if they leave the NCAA they will have to form some type of organization to moderate matters. I'm sure that organization would keep the education standard the same.

Not trying to disagree with you, just want to add to the thought process. What if instead of mandatory classes they are provided job training. Such as those that are shoe in for the pros get "tutored" in how to manage life as a professional athlete, everything from budgeting to nutrition. Those that wanted to take classes and earn a degree can but it wouldn't impact their eligibility on the field.

Here's another one: if the P5 broke away do you think the NCAA folds altogether? Yes the P5 only make up a small portion of members they do generate a bulk of the profits. Do you think anyone would care about March Madness if Cinderella didn't have any giants to slay?


Again this is all fun and games because it hasn't happened.

Problem with the job training is what if a player has a career ending injury his senior year, yet he spend his first three or four years not taking the curriculum the university has outlined for a degree? Honestly I think the NCAA will cave to the P5 demands over time and players will be able to be paid, CFB playoffs will be expanded, and if desired by P5 schools, allow additional scholarships. One area the NCAA won't bend will be academics and I don't blame them one bit.

I agree with you 100% in the fact that the NCAA will cave to basically anything the P5s want. They are the golden goose. To your point about the injury during the last year of eligibility, in my fantasy world where I'm concocting all of this it is run as a business and in the event of this situation the individual would either be given a severance package or allowed to transfer into the school at a reduced rate. In the immortal words of the enlightened philosopher Puff Daddy: It's all about the Benjamins.

If they are getting paid and their only ‘classes’ are how to manage the money, at what point does the university stand up and say we aren’t going to essentially have our names on the jersey of a minor league team that uses our facilities. I know the argument is that is what happens now to a degree but I still believe there are a lot of presidents and professors who won’t stand for it being that obvious. I’m not sure the universities would just go along with that so willingly. I can imagine a bunch of 19 year olds making bank and just rolling around the campus with zero pretense of getting an education or even following rules would breed resentment.

What if they were viewed more as employees than students? To increase morale and esprit de corps not to mention bringing in potentially hundreds of millions dollars into the institution. Is it really that far of a jump? What's the difference between having phony degree programs and this?

Please know I am not advocating for this, but I don't think we are that far away from something like this.

[appdaze]

I've said it on here long ago and I say it when it comes up with friends. It will still be a bit but the future of college sports is having teams that are "sponsored" by the school but more or less a separate entity. The athletes will be getting paid and it will be a minor league type of system. For baseball the college players would essentially be low level prospects. Like a low single A sort of thing. For basketball it would be the the 3rd level league behing the D and G leagues (WNBA minor league?) where players can already go and skip college to make money. For football it is actually more clear because there is no cut and dry farm system besides college. Each school would sponsor a team but the team would be a business. Donors could still donate and such. The game day experiences could pretty much remain the same. The athletes would be employees the same as pro league athletes but there would probably be some system set up to where they could take classes if they chose to do so. Sports like hockey, volleyball, etc would be similar in becoming more of a farm system for pro and olympic levels then they already are. If you're going to be a dominate tennis player you've already been a pro since you were in your teens so honestly that part doesn't matter as much.

The caveat to all this is that a good chunk of college programs will die. I think that is inevitable in the future. As athletics continue ti skyrocket in costs I just don't see a lot of programs making the cut. Those that do will probably form their own separate league and cling on to the student athlete model in some capacity.

The part that will get wild is when the players unionize with all the pieces that come with that. Then what do you do when a player demands to be let out of their contract to play for another college sponsored team? Do we start trading like the pros? I think there will be a wild west period when the pro model first gets applied to college sports.

I would still watch some college sports but it will never be the same once that bridge is crossed.

[bigdaddyg]

How about what is happening in the PAC 12? Essentially some football players are trying to call their own shots and hold the schools for ransom. Getting out of control more and more.

[ah59396]

To your point I do believe that the bottom tier P5 schools would accept the move away from the NCAA. The Kansas', Vandys, Rutgers', Boston College's, Oregon State's of the world know they will not be competing for national championships or even conference championships. But if they never had to play the G5 or FCS schools then they could never lose to them either. Their perceived superiority over the G5 and FCS remains intact so even if they have a 2 win season "at least they play against real opponents, not jv teams".

Again I don't foresee this coming to fruition but stranger things have happened.

If the P5 separates from the NCAA, this would be a real solid split. Obviously the NCAA would not allow their teams to play this new semi-pro league due among others things to amateur status.

Because of that, i agree with you. I don’t even think it’s a debate. Of course the Vandy’s/Kansas/Boston Colleges of the world would want to be in that club, regardless of competition. All of their primary rivals would be there and the money would be other worldly. And they can still schedule each other OOC.

An easy way to look at it is Vandy today. SEC doormat, but of course would never even consider the idea of leaving. Are we to believe their fans support them because 2 of their 3 wins last season came against East Tennessee and Northern Illinois? Of course not. Their fans show up because they are and SEC team and they can play spoiler, like their 3rd win shocking #22 Missouri.

If App got invited to that hypothetical league, and could only schedule the other power 65 going forward, I doubt a single fan on this board would turn that down.

[ArmantiWaterSafety]

I have to think the money would go way down if this separation would occur. Student sections wouldn't be the same. I certainly wouldn't donate to essentially a minor league team. College football student sections exist because of the "one of us" feeling; they go to class with these guys, see these guys around campus, and even if they never talk to any of them in their life, they still feel the connection to them because of that. The spirit of college football fandom would be nonexistent and it'd be like going to a Greensboro Grasshoppers game; sure, it's fun, but I don't view it as any different than going to another entertainment venue. College sports are special because of the connection, and if you lose that connection you are going to see support dwindle even though they have the college name brandished on their jersey.