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Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:26 am
by ClimbTheMountian
Local sports talk radio show was discussing that college offenses are doing themselves an injustice if not using TE effectively in passing game. Commentators were using the super success of Georgia and the NFL of late as examples of super effective use of TE. . In fact, the commentators are saying that offenses are now being built around the TE. App has a talented TE room, but their offensive scheme for TE is very one dimensional. Hopefully, Ponce and Clark will look to the NFL and the top tier FBS programs as examples of successful evolutions of offense. Kind of tired of reasoning I hear from those close to staff saying “our scheme works and we just need to execute better.” Continuous improvement and change are keys to any sustained success.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:42 am
by BambooRdApp
that Georgia Fr. TE was very good. He had great hands.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:54 am
by APPdiesel
Explain what you mean by our tight end scheme being one dimensional. I haven’t gone back and analyzed targets, yds and TDs by our tight ends in 2020 and 2021 and I’m certainly not an expert on running the position effectively but I remember a running “joke” that nobody covers App State tight ends over the past few years with many many clips of our tight ends breaking out into the open for touchdowns. Maybe I’m disproportionately remembering plays under Drink’s scheme.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:03 am
by AppSt94
The current scheme used by App does have plays designed for the TE. Collin Reed and to a lesser extent Henry Pearson have put up some pretty respectable numbers in the past. I guess my question is with such a senior experience rich group of receivers, who do you take the touches from? We also have plays designed for RBs to catch the ball out of the backfield. We haven’t seen those either. Do you suppose that’s because Clark and Ponce don’t want to take advantage of the weapons, or that pass catching may not be a particular strength of this group?
Back to the TEs. I think that you will see more targets and general use of the TE group this season. Not because the coaches saw the light, but because they will need them more involved.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:54 pm
by NewApp
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This TE thing gets old.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:54 pm
by ClimbTheMountian
Tight End match ups for defenses are particularly tough. A DB on WR is not a mismatch in size and strength usually. Our TE corp performed very well when called in passing game in 2021…calling on them more should provide continued good dividends. They are a talented group with more to offer. Looking forward to an exciting 2022 campaign with some new faces in the passing game. Roll Neers.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
by AppStateNews
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said, when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
by /\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said,
when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:11 pm
by AppStateNews
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said,
when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Not as many as you think actually. There were more than usual, but that is because Clark and co were more willing to go for it on 4th down after the first LaLa game based on feedback from the captains (WRs included). Most of the time when it was 3rd and long and we ran it, it was decided to get the 3-4 yards that would be "given" and go for it on 4th.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:41 pm
by WASU 93
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:11 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said,
when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Not as many as you think actually. There were more than usual, but that is because Clark and co were more willing to go for it on 4th down after the first LaLa game based on feedback from the captains (WRs included). Most of the time when it was 3rd and long and we ran it, it was decided to get the 3-4 yards that would be "given" and go for it on 4th.
Exactly
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:00 pm
by /\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:11 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said,
when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Not as many as you think actually. There were more than usual, but that is because Clark and co were more willing to go for it on 4th down after the first LaLa game based on feedback from the captains (WRs included). Most of the time when it was 3rd and long and we ran it, it was decided to get the 3-4 yards that would be "given" and go for it on 4th.
You watched enough games this year to know exactly what I mean. We passed on most third and longs, so I'm not even trying to say all we did was run. I'm not even suggesting some of the times we ran it wasn't warranted, such as to set up a 4th down call. We all know there were offensive series this year where the run wasn't effective, yet on 3rd and long a run was called, and not always to set up a 4th down play.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:03 pm
by AppSt94
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:00 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:11 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said,
when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Not as many as you think actually. There were more than usual, but that is because Clark and co were more willing to go for it on 4th down after the first LaLa game based on feedback from the captains (WRs included). Most of the time when it was 3rd and long and we ran it, it was decided to get the 3-4 yards that would be "given" and go for it on 4th.
You watched enough games this year to know exactly what I mean. We passed on most third and longs, so I'm not even trying to say all we did was run. I'm not even suggesting some of the times we ran it wasn't warranted, such as to set up a 4th down call. We all know there were offensive series this year where the run wasn't effective, yet on 3rd and long a run was called, and not always to set up a 4th down play.
So I spent a few days going through the drive charts. I charted every third down play and the results. Along with the fourth down plays I may have missed a few but the overall data should support what we are asking.
Short Yardage (1-3)
43 attempts (Rushing converted 17-32 53%) (Passing 9-11 82%)
We attempted 11 4th downs (R- 7 of 8: P 1-3) 3 FG, 2 Punts, 1 missed FG
Medium Yardage (4-7)
68 attempts (R 9-16, 31%: P 19-49, 38%).
10 4th Down attempts. (R 3-4; P 2-6) One of those passing conversions resulted in a fumble after making the line to gain.
Long Yardage (>7)
70 attempts. (R 5-31 16%; P 11-39 28%)
9 4th Down attempts. (R 4-5; P 3-4)
Those 9 attempts involved 3 attempts in the short range, 3 in the medium range and 3 in the long range. Interestingly enough, the two failed conversions were a 9 yrd pass and a 1 yard Run.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:55 pm
by AtlAppMan
AppSt94 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:03 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:00 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:11 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:16 pm
Part of the reason we didn't use TEs as much the last two years in the passing game is two fold. Like 94 said,
when you have 4 studs on the WR corps, you have to use them. Also, the pass protection from the RBs leaves a lot to be desired. Our best pass pro RB is Noel. Because of that, the TEs had to stay in and block more often than in years past.
Clark alluded to it in his end of season presser, but it's very important for Ponce to get one more year in with his offense. From what I am hearing, even though we are losing a ton of talent, we aren't expecting to skip a beat with offensive production.
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Not as many as you think actually. There were more than usual, but that is because Clark and co were more willing to go for it on 4th down after the first LaLa game based on feedback from the captains (WRs included). Most of the time when it was 3rd and long and we ran it, it was decided to get the 3-4 yards that would be "given" and go for it on 4th.
You watched enough games this year to know exactly what I mean. We passed on most third and longs, so I'm not even trying to say all we did was run. I'm not even suggesting some of the times we ran it wasn't warranted, such as to set up a 4th down call. We all know there were offensive series this year where the run wasn't effective, yet on 3rd and long a run was called, and not always to set up a 4th down play.
So I spent a few days going through the drive charts. I charted every third down play and the results. Along with the fourth down plays I may have missed a few but the overall data should support what we are asking.
Short Yardage (1-3)
43 attempts (Rushing converted 17-32 53%) (Passing 9-11 82%)
We attempted 11 4th downs (R- 7 of 8: P 1-3) 3 FG, 2 Punts, 1 missed FG
Medium Yardage (4-7)
68 attempts (R 9-16, 31%: P 19-49, 38%).
10 4th Down attempts. (R 3-4; P 2-6) One of those passing conversions resulted in a fumble after making the line to gain.
Long Yardage (>7)
70 attempts. (R 5-31 16%; P 11-39 28%)
9 4th Down attempts. (R 4-5; P 3-4)
Those 9 attempts involved 3 attempts in the short range, 3 in the medium range and 3 in the long range. Intermingle enough, the two failed conversions were a 9 yrd pass and a 1 yard Run.
Thanks for the analysis Mr. 94, greatly appreciate your time. So here are a few takeaways I saw.
1. It SEEMS like a low conversion percentage for converting 3rd and short when running, especially vs passing. We are 50/50 running 3rd and short, Wow! But in contrast passing on 3rd and short was very high percentage conversion. So if you pass on 3rd and short and miss it, 20% of time, try passing again on 4th and short, that would be a combined much higher conversion rate than running based on our stats. This stat confirms what I suspected, our 3rd and short running game was not good enough.
2. The frequency of 3rd and short (43 times vs 140 times for med/long) appears to show a poor job on 1st and 2nd down.
3. Also, in ALL categories, passing yielded a higher/much higher rate of conversion than the running yielded. Therefore, passing was more effective.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:10 pm
by AppSt94
AtlAppMan wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:55 pm
AppSt94 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:03 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:00 pm
AppStateNews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:11 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:27 pm
You know how many third and longs this past season where this was applicable, but a run was called instead?
Not as many as you think actually. There were more than usual, but that is because Clark and co were more willing to go for it on 4th down after the first LaLa game based on feedback from the captains (WRs included). Most of the time when it was 3rd and long and we ran it, it was decided to get the 3-4 yards that would be "given" and go for it on 4th.
You watched enough games this year to know exactly what I mean. We passed on most third and longs, so I'm not even trying to say all we did was run. I'm not even suggesting some of the times we ran it wasn't warranted, such as to set up a 4th down call. We all know there were offensive series this year where the run wasn't effective, yet on 3rd and long a run was called, and not always to set up a 4th down play.
So I spent a few days going through the drive charts. I charted every third down play and the results. Along with the fourth down plays I may have missed a few but the overall data should support what we are asking.
Short Yardage (1-3)
43 attempts (Rushing converted 17-32 53%) (Passing 9-11 82%)
We attempted 11 4th downs (R- 7 of 8: P 1-3) 3 FG, 2 Punts, 1 missed FG
Medium Yardage (4-7)
68 attempts (R 9-16, 31%: P 19-49, 38%).
10 4th Down attempts. (R 3-4; P 2-6) One of those passing conversions resulted in a fumble after making the line to gain.
Long Yardage (>7)
70 attempts. (R 5-31 16%; P 11-39 28%)
9 4th Down attempts. (R 4-5; P 3-4)
Those 9 attempts involved 3 attempts in the short range, 3 in the medium range and 3 in the long range. Intermingle enough, the two failed conversions were a 9 yrd pass and a 1 yard Run.
Thanks for the analysis Mr. 94, greatly appreciate your time. So here are a few takeaways I saw.
1. It SEEMS like a low conversion percentage for converting 3rd and short when running, especially vs passing. We are 50/50 running 3rd and short, Wow! But in contrast passing on 3rd and short was very high percentage conversion. So if you pass on 3rd and short and miss it, 20% of time, try passing again on 4th and short, that would be a combined much higher conversion rate than running based on our stats. This stat confirms what I suspected, our 3rd and short running game was not good enough.
2. The frequency of 3rd and short (43 times vs 140 times for med/long) appears to show a poor job on 1st and 2nd down.
3. Also, in ALL categories, passing yielded a higher/much higher rate of conversion than the running yielded. Therefore, passing was more effective.
Something to keep in mind that while these numbers are a good indicator, they don’t really paint the entire picture. Field position has some factors to what is called. I also charted the penalties. The one thing that I noticed early on in the season was how infrequently that offensive penalties stalled drives.
Re: Tight End Centric Offenses
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:32 pm
by BambooRdApp
This is great. One big TE in motion.