If you can find it I would highly recommend going back to listen to the post-game commentary from David & Brownie. There was a bunch of interesting "insider" information given over the air, much of it eye-opening.

The one thing that really raised my blood pressure was the mention of the coaches trying to figure out what to do with all the "good" incoming freshmen. Apparently we have a stock of really good linemen that might have competed with the starters this year.

The point that was brought up was the coach's discussion on whether or not to red shirt them. I took the conversation to insinuate that we wanted to "save" them for when it "meant something." The only reason Cox wasn't redshirted was because we absolutely "needed" an RB....

So my question is this: Did we throw in the towel before the season even started? If the coaches decided to keep the best players off the field to "save" them for next year than it's no wonder our guys aren't motivated...

vegattk wrote:If you can find it I would highly recommend going back to listen to the post-game commentary from David & Brownie. There was a bunch of interesting "insider" information given over the air, much of it eye-opening.

The one thing that really raised my blood pressure was the mention of the coaches trying to figure out what to do with all the "good" incoming freshmen. Apparently we have a stock of really good linemen that might have competed with the starters this year.

The point that was brought up was the coach's discussion on whether or not to red shirt them. I took the conversation to insinuate that we wanted to "save" them for when it "meant something." The only reason Cox wasn't redshirted was because we absolutely "needed" an RB....

So my question is this: Did we throw in the towel before the season even started? If the coaches decided to keep the best players off the field to "save" them for next year than it's no wonder our guys aren't motivated...

I have heard speculation about this. I completely understand the desire to red-shirt most of the freshmen. But if it is true that these freshmen could help us immediately, how much damage to the program are we willing to tolerate to keep them red-shirted? That is the question I have been asking myself.

We're just doing it so we get the number 1 pick in the draft! Oh wait...

We redshirt a good number of our freshmen every year. This same offensive line went 8-4 last year, so the argument could be made that we didn't need them anyways.

I find your sig ironic. You and Gonz are both trolls, just on opposite sides of the spectrum.

[quote="Appftw"]We redshirt a good number of our freshmen every year. This same offensive line went 8-4 last year, so the argument could be made that we didn't need them anyways.

Whom are you addressing?

I'm fine with it if that was the reasoning. Because anyone honest with themselves will admit this season, and to a lesser extent next season, do have less meaning than 2015 and beyond will. Especially this year. So take the punches this season, give all these 17 and 18 year olds a year of pure practice and conditioning training, and let them start their 4 years next year, when at least a conference title is available to play for.

rbarthle17 wrote:I'm fine with it if that was the reasoning. Because anyone honest with themselves will admit this season, and to a lesser extent next season, do have less meaning than 2015 and beyond will. Especially this year. So take the punches this season, give all these 17 and 18 year olds a year of pure practice and conditioning training, and let them start their 4 years next year, when at least a conference title is available to play for.

I can certainly see the reasoning in red-shirting a freshman... It gives them time to develop and become even better.

But what does it say about App State Football when we decide to not put the "best" players on the field.. no matter what one is playing for?

"Always Do More Than Is Expected"

I have a hard time believing that keeping players on the bench, just to keep them out of this season is doing more than expected.

Heck, shouldn't fans have expected a discount on tickets if we would have known that less than 100% effort was going into making this team compete this year?

Please don't think I'm railing at you about this.. it just gets under my skin that we might be "saving" good players for a year that "counts".

Appsolutely wrote:

Appftw wrote:We redshirt a good number of our freshmen every year. This same offensive line went 8-4 last year, so the argument could be made that we didn't need them anyways.

I find your sig ironic. You and Gonz are both trolls, just on opposite sides of the spectrum.

Hey, genius...I know we red-shirt most freshmen every year, and most of the time it's because we don't need them. Unless you've got your head up your rectum, you should know that this year is a little different in terms of the team we are putting on the field.

Please define "troll." I'm not sure you know the definition, and you certainly don't know me.
And in case you are wondering, Steve Brown is wondering the same thing about the red-shirts and has said so publicly. But I guess his opinion doesn't matter either.

The signature may be ironic, but it is true no matter who said it.

I think he was directing his comment towards me.

I think he was directing his comment towards me. [/quote]

Yeah, that occurred to me later. It doesn't take much for me to go off on somebody's a$$ these days. This season has my Hanes in a total wad.

rbarthle17 wrote:I'm fine with it if that was the reasoning. Because anyone honest with themselves will admit this season, and to a lesser extent next season, do have less meaning than 2015 and beyond will. Especially this year. So take the punches this season, give all these 17 and 18 year olds a year of pure practice and conditioning training, and let them start their 4 years next year, when at least a conference title is available to play for.

The problem with that logic is that with a slide like this it will validate the people that said that we shouldn't move up and cause the fan base to erode during the next year so that not only are we building the first bowl eligible team in 2015, we will also be rebuilding parts of the fan base.

We are at a level, and will be for shure next year that we can't afford to write off any season as a building year.

appgrouch wrote:

rbarthle17 wrote:I'm fine with it if that was the reasoning. Because anyone honest with themselves will admit this season, and to a lesser extent next season, do have less meaning than 2015 and beyond will. Especially this year. So take the punches this season, give all these 17 and 18 year olds a year of pure practice and conditioning training, and let them start their 4 years next year, when at least a conference title is available to play for.

The problem with that logic is that with a slide like this it will validate the people that said that we shouldn't move up and cause the fan base to erode during the next year so that not only are we building the first bowl eligible team in 2015, we will also be rebuilding parts of the fan base.

We are at a level, and will be for shure next year that we can't afford to write off any season as a building year.

Exactly... How much does momentum (team, program, fan base, school) suffer when you take "off" a year?

To me this would be the WORST possible time to do it... Especially when we face a difficult Sunbelt schedule in the future...

I wouldn't think that many GOOD freshmen would play for a college that just planned on redshirting them for a later time. I think that would mainly describe players that knew they weren't ready. But this isn't something that I know much about.

Competing for playing time as opposed to likely starting is a different matter. With the unit returning, the thinking was probably that we can afford to give the freshmen a year to grow and develop, learn the system, etc. In retrospect, it might have been a mistake but I can't necessarily fault the logic. At this point, I'm not sure it makes sense to drop the redshirts.

Here's the real question. We are halfway through the season. We still have UGA coming up, a game that would be hard to win under the best conditions. If we did shirt players to help us next year because this season really was "meaningless" do we really burn those shirts now to get a couple more wins? Gain half a season and lose a whole one for what?

Some are worried about losing fans. The hard core fans will still be there. I remember the days when the visiting teams would bring nearly as many fans as App had to Conrad. But our student base has grown to nearly 18,000 and WHEN we start winning again the others will return.

We started this season with a team that went 8-4 last year BUT with a pre-season POTY who wasn't even close to 100% (more like 50%), an All-American WR who couldn't even make it to the first game, a new HC, a new DC trying to install a new scheme with players recruited out of a different scheme (not as easy to adapt as some might think), lost our best option DLineman before we faced our first option team, and regardless of the number of starters we had return the starters don't play the whole game and our two deep is very young. Given all that plus the fact that the starters we did lose were key players we replaced, for the most part, with true and RS Fr. and So. players I'm not all that surprised where we are. I expected us to win the usual "cupcake" games but it turned out that they were better and we weren't as good as I thought we would be. But given that we have 77 Fr. and So. players on this team with around 25 or so scholarship players and who knows who many PWO players coming in this year then it's apparent we are building for the future. Only time will tell whether it works. But personally I don't think it's worth taking the shirts off.

hapapp wrote:Competing for playing time as opposed to likely starting is a different matter. With the unit returning, the thinking was probably that we can afford to give the freshmen a year to grow and develop, learn the system, etc. In retrospect, it might have been a mistake but I can't necessarily fault the logic. At this point, I'm not sure it makes sense to drop the redshirts.

I certainly agree that dropping the shirts at this point would be a bad move. What I can't figure out is them not giving the freshmen a shot ( if they didn't )after seeing the play in the two spring games/scrimmages. As you say maybe they couldn't start yet but if not we have an awful lot of work to do.
No matter who plays and how big they are next year, they will need to be stronger than this group is.

firemoose wrote:Here's the real question. We are halfway through the season. We still have UGA coming up, a game that would be hard to win under the best conditions. If we did shirt players to help us next year because this season really was "meaningless" do we really burn those shirts now to get a couple more wins? Gain half a season and lose a whole one for what?

Some are worried about losing fans. The hard core fans will still be there. I remember the days when the visiting teams would bring nearly as many fans as App had to Conrad. But our student base has grown to nearly 18,000 and WHEN we start winning again the others will return.

We started this season with a team that went 8-4 last year BUT with a pre-season POTY who wasn't even close to 100% (more like 50%), an All-American WR who couldn't even make it to the first game, a new HC, a new DC trying to install a new scheme with players recruited out of a different scheme (not as easy to adapt as some might think), lost our best option DLineman before we faced our first option team, and regardless of the number of starters we had return the starters don't play the whole game and our two deep is very young. Given all that plus the fact that the starters we did lose were key players we replaced, for the most part, with true and RS Fr. and So. players I'm not all that surprised where we are. I expected us to win the usual "cupcake" games but it turned out that they were better and we weren't as good as I thought we would be. But given that we have 77 Fr. and So. players on this team with around 25 or so scholarship players and who knows who many PWO players coming in this year then it's apparent we are building for the future. Only time will tell whether it works. But personally I don't think it's worth taking the shirts off.

GREAT POST Fire!!!!! I wouldn't bring those guys off their redshirt for NOTHING!!! I really think the coaching staff is doing the correct thing. We need these guys to get bigger and stronger for Sunbelt play. A year of learing the system and growing one year does wonders for a young kids body. It's about the future right now. This season might be over, but I think with the guys sitting and waiting, we will have one hell of a team in the years to come.

vegattk wrote:
Heck, shouldn't fans have expected a discount on tickets if we would have known that less than 100% effort was going into making this team compete this year?

That is a good point. Next year when it is time to re-up many people will be thinking about this season. Many will say I'll be back when you prove it is worth my hard earned money. I expect ticket prices to increase next year also so that will put hardship on top of doubt. I don't care what anyone says this season was just as important as any we played.

firemoose wrote:Here's the real question. We are halfway through the season. We still have UGA coming up, a game that would be hard to win under the best conditions. If we did shirt players to help us next year because this season really was "meaningless" do we really burn those shirts now to get a couple more wins? Gain half a season and lose a whole one for what?

Some are worried about losing fans. The hard core fans will still be there. I remember the days when the visiting teams would bring nearly as many fans as App had to Conrad. But our student base has grown to nearly 18,000 and WHEN we start winning again the others will return.

We started this season with a team that went 8-4 last year BUT with a pre-season POTY who wasn't even close to 100% (more like 50%), an All-American WR who couldn't even make it to the first game, a new HC, a new DC trying to install a new scheme with players recruited out of a different scheme (not as easy to adapt as some might think), lost our best option DLineman before we faced our first option team, and regardless of the number of starters we had return the starters don't play the whole game and our two deep is very young. Given all that plus the fact that the starters we did lose were key players we replaced, for the most part, with true and RS Fr. and So. players I'm not all that surprised where we are. I expected us to win the usual "cupcake" games but it turned out that they were better and we weren't as good as I thought we would be. But given that we have 77 Fr. and So. players on this team with around 25 or so scholarship players and who knows who many PWO players coming in this year then it's apparent we are building for the future. Only time will tell whether it works. But personally I don't think it's worth taking the shirts off.

Completely agree Moose.... The shirts should stay on...

My point on contention was that the players, before the season were red-shirted, even if they were the best player for the position, in order to "save them" for a season that mattered.

firemoose wrote:Here's the real question. We are halfway through the season. We still have UGA coming up, a game that would be hard to win under the best conditions. If we did shirt players to help us next year because this season really was "meaningless" do we really burn those shirts now to get a couple more wins? Gain half a season and lose a whole one for what?

Some are worried about losing fans. The hard core fans will still be there. I remember the days when the visiting teams would bring nearly as many fans as App had to Conrad. But our student base has grown to nearly 18,000 and WHEN we start winning again the others will return.

We started this season with a team that went 8-4 last year BUT with a pre-season POTY who wasn't even close to 100% (more like 50%), an All-American WR who couldn't even make it to the first game, a new HC, a new DC trying to install a new scheme with players recruited out of a different scheme (not as easy to adapt as some might think), lost our best option DLineman before we faced our first option team, and regardless of the number of starters we had return the starters don't play the whole game and our two deep is very young. Given all that plus the fact that the starters we did lose were key players we replaced, for the most part, with true and RS Fr. and So. players I'm not all that surprised where we are. I expected us to win the usual "cupcake" games but it turned out that they were better and we weren't as good as I thought we would be. But given that we have 77 Fr. and So. players on this team with around 25 or so scholarship players and who knows who many PWO players coming in this year then it's apparent we are building for the future. Only time will tell whether it works. But personally I don't think it's worth taking the shirts off.

Agreed. At this point it makes no sense to pull the red shirts. We already have a lot RS Freshmen playing that obviously need the PT. Playing the guys who are being red shirted would also create a huge senior class in 3 years, and I doubt we want to get into a cycle of having a 30+ player class every 4 years.

Maybe my seats will improve once the bandwagoners jump off. When they jump back on in two seasons I'll enjoy my prime seats.

Things that are difficult are the most rewarding. Looking forward to raising our level of play on the field higher than it has ever been.

We lost badly this weekend but picked up two good recruits beating out Marshall for both. Good days are ahead, keep the faith.