Start Lamb

[App91]

That was one reason we lost so many football games last year,
waiting to change QBs even though it was obvious. We need the
coaching staff to play the best QB and not try to keep doing the
same old crap they did last year. No doubt play Taylor Lamb. He
is by far the better QB.

So you are saying that the coaches are NOT playing the best QB? And how do you know this to be true? What qualifies you to make that determination?

THIS, this may be the largest issue. This is a very inexperienced coaching staff. 1 yr and 1 game of coaching experience of running a program. Last year waited too long to pull the trigger and it cost us dearly. yes, KB was better that an gun shy starter with a bad knee, that does not make him a starting QB at this level. We know what he has and he is not accurate past 10-15 yrds, and bad arm strength. Couple those with the inability to make quick decisions and not be elusive, well some times when you have a "gamer" you have to go with that hand. Lets hope that coaching inexperience does not play into this again.

[AppAttack]

What qualifies Kam to be the starter? Half a season against 1-AA competition? Maybe our inexperienced coaching staff is too hesitant to make the switch and too afraid to make a mistake instead of truly selecting the best player to lead the team. Would we have won national championships in 2006 and 2007 with Trey Elder and Armanti as the backup? Declare an open competition. Alternate quarters against Campbell and see what happens. I want to see who performs better in equal game situations. Not camp, ACTUAL GAMES.

[AppSt94]

So you are suggesting that the coaching staff may not know what they are doing based on inexperience? SS was responsible for developing a few guys that you may have heard of into quality QB's. Richie Williams, Trey Elder, Armanti Edwards. I think that he knows what he is doing with the QB's and I am sure he knows what he has.

There are intangibles at stake that you and others seem to dismiss as foolish. Kam has been with the program now for three years. He stood in line for the chance to run the team. He stayed prepared for the opportunity and when the opportunity arrived he stepped in for JJ. He paid his dues. Is it reasonable to assume that Taylor Lamb could have been the #2 as a true freshmen last year? Possibly but he wasn't needed and it would have been a throw away season in a year that meant nothing in terms of championships. He is a leader on the team and the his teammates like him. If you yank the guy who won the job after a week one performance against a team that you weren't going to beat anyway, you will lose your team and effectively sign your own pink slip. To put in simpler terms, if you were the coach and pulled the QB that earned the job after 3 qtrs of one game, then you would soon be looking for work because NO ONE would ever want to play for you.

[AppSt94]

What qualifies Kam to be the starter? Half a season against 1-AA competition? Maybe our inexperienced coaching staff is too hesitant to make the switch and too afraid to make a mistake instead of truly selecting the best player to lead the team. Would we have won national championships in 2006 and 2007 with Trey Elder and Armanti as the backup? Declare an open competition. Alternate quarters against Campbell and see what happens. I want to see who performs better in equal game situations. Not camp, ACTUAL GAMES.

I don't disagree with you. I think the only way to see what each one can do is too openly declare a competition for the starter. As for what qualifies KB to be the starter is the fact that he earned it. Lamb had the shot to take the job and apparently he did not.

[Yosef84]

I was very pleased with how solid Lamb looked yesterday, as was everyone here. Rather than restating the obvious about the situation (already stated multiple times) I just want to point out that our young WRs dropped at least three drive sustaining passes in the first half that hit them in the hands. The passes weren't perfect, but our WRs have to make those catches. If they had been made, we might not even be having this conversation. Sure, Kam could have played better yesterday, but my only real question is why he seems so reluctant to tuck the ball and pick up the first down with his legs when the field is open in front of him. He is an excellent athlete, and that is one of the main advantages he offers over Lamb, but if he is going to play like a pro-style QB, he isn't using all his weapons. AppFan11 said that Lamb's slow foot speed would have been a problem, but he managed to pick up a first down by tucking the ball and running once on his drive. He seems athletic enough.

We need the Defense to HAVE to defend multiple options (RB, QB, Pass) or we are going to struggle.

The positive is that, the issues I see from yesterday are all related to experience/youth and are coachable. I think we continue improving and meet expectations this year.

Having TWO good QBs is a blessing for the Apps.

[AppSt94]

The problem is not that KB is the starter. The problem is that Lamb is the backup. We will probably see this same thread two years from now. The only difference being that instead of it being titled "Start Lamb", it will say "Start Caruso". Mark it down.

[APPARJ]

So you are suggesting that the coaching staff may not know what they are doing based on inexperience? SS was responsible for developing a few guys that you may have heard of into quality QB's. Richie Williams, Trey Elder, Armanti Edwards. I think that he knows what he is doing with the QB's and I am sure he knows what he has.

There are intangibles at stake that you and others seem to dismiss as foolish. Kam has been with the program now for three years. He stood in line for the chance to run the team. He stayed prepared for the opportunity and when the opportunity arrived he stepped in for JJ. He paid his dues. Is it reasonable to assume that Taylor Lamb could have been the #2 as a true freshmen last year? Possibly but he wasn't needed and it would have been a throw away season in a year that meant nothing in terms of championships. He is a leader on the team and the his teammates like him. If you yank the guy who won the job after a week one performance against a team that you weren't going to beat anyway, you will lose your team and effectively sign your own pink slip. To put in simpler terms, if you were the coach and pulled the QB that earned the job after 3 qtrs of one game, then you would soon be looking for work because NO ONE would ever want to play for you.

Actually, you don't know what it would do to the team. Maybe the guys on the team are thinking "We want to win and we think Taylor will help us more than Kam..." Maybe they're not. Can you say for sure that the entire team has the perspective you just described? Do you know that the team would unravel and fold if Lamb was the starter? Nope, you sure don't. And neither do I or anyone on this board.

It took big, brass balls for Jerry Moore to bench Trey Elder for a true freshman. Look what happened when Coach made the choice to go with the best player... history.

Obviously Lamb isn't Armanti, but who on this board can say he's not the best QB on the team???

Kam paid his dues for an opportunity to be a starter, not to stay a starter.

[AppSt94]

So you are suggesting that the coaching staff may not know what they are doing based on inexperience? SS was responsible for developing a few guys that you may have heard of into quality QB's. Richie Williams, Trey Elder, Armanti Edwards. I think that he knows what he is doing with the QB's and I am sure he knows what he has.

There are intangibles at stake that you and others seem to dismiss as foolish. Kam has been with the program now for three years. He stood in line for the chance to run the team. He stayed prepared for the opportunity and when the opportunity arrived he stepped in for JJ. He paid his dues. Is it reasonable to assume that Taylor Lamb could have been the #2 as a true freshmen last year? Possibly but he wasn't needed and it would have been a throw away season in a year that meant nothing in terms of championships. He is a leader on the team and the his teammates like him. If you yank the guy who won the job after a week one performance against a team that you weren't going to beat anyway, you will lose your team and effectively sign your own pink slip. To put in simpler terms, if you were the coach and pulled the QB that earned the job after 3 qtrs of one game, then you would soon be looking for work because NO ONE would ever want to play for you.

Actually, you don't know what it would do to the team. Maybe the guys on the team are thinking "We want to win and we think Taylor will help us more than Kam..." Maybe they're not. Can you say for sure that the entire team has the perspective you just described? Do you know that the team would unravel and fold if Lamb was the starter? Nope, you sure don't. And neither do I or anyone on this board.

It took big, brass balls for Jerry Moore to bench Trey Elder for a true freshman. Look what happened when Coach made the choice to go with the best player... history.

Obviously Lamb isn't Armanti, but who on this board can say he's not the best QB on the team???

Kam paid his dues for an opportunity to be a starter, not to stay a starter.

First off. Everything you just posted are valid points. I don't pretend to have all of the answers and no I cannot say that everyone would feel that way. But the feelings of the team and how they MAY react have to be taken in consideration by the coaching staff when pondering such a move. I imagine that when the players watch the film they will see how calm and professional Lamb carried himself on the field and they may be OK with such a move.

Here is a question for you. Do you think that SS had a hand in the decision to make AE the starter? I don't know, just speculation. If so, then he has some experience in the situation and will handle it accordingly. I agree with your statement that Kam paid his dues for the opportunity, not to stay the starter. I liked what I saw from Lamb and I think he offered a glimpse of the future. But there is a reason that he didn't start the season as the starter. Playing sports in high school, every coach will tell you that if there are two players (a senior and a junior) of equal ability then they will take the younger one. So if they were equal coming out of camp then Lamb should have been the starter. I do think that Lamb can develop through the season to take the job. However, two series in a game is not enough of a body of work IMO.

[AppAttack]

Wasn't Lamb injured during part of camp? Seems like he missed some practices/scrimmages. Also, someone said earlier that Kam was an "excellent" athlete. I'd hardly say that. He's a good athlete. In fact, I'm not sure he's even that much (if any) more mobile than Lamb. So that can't be used as a reason to start one over the other. Of course we all want the best guy in there that can lead the team and move them down the field consistently. Camp might not be the best way to do that. Let them take equal reps in practice with the first team. Let them compete in equal game situations in the next two games before conference play and then we'll know.

[AppSt94]

The only issue with splitting reps is splitting reps. Reps are important to the starter and to take them away might be counter productive.

[APPARJ]

So you are suggesting that the coaching staff may not know what they are doing based on inexperience? SS was responsible for developing a few guys that you may have heard of into quality QB's. Richie Williams, Trey Elder, Armanti Edwards. I think that he knows what he is doing with the QB's and I am sure he knows what he has.

There are intangibles at stake that you and others seem to dismiss as foolish. Kam has been with the program now for three years. He stood in line for the chance to run the team. He stayed prepared for the opportunity and when the opportunity arrived he stepped in for JJ. He paid his dues. Is it reasonable to assume that Taylor Lamb could have been the #2 as a true freshmen last year? Possibly but he wasn't needed and it would have been a throw away season in a year that meant nothing in terms of championships. He is a leader on the team and the his teammates like him. If you yank the guy who won the job after a week one performance against a team that you weren't going to beat anyway, you will lose your team and effectively sign your own pink slip. To put in simpler terms, if you were the coach and pulled the QB that earned the job after 3 qtrs of one game, then you would soon be looking for work because NO ONE would ever want to play for you.

Actually, you don't know what it would do to the team. Maybe the guys on the team are thinking "We want to win and we think Taylor will help us more than Kam..." Maybe they're not. Can you say for sure that the entire team has the perspective you just described? Do you know that the team would unravel and fold if Lamb was the starter? Nope, you sure don't. And neither do I or anyone on this board.

It took big, brass balls for Jerry Moore to bench Trey Elder for a true freshman. Look what happened when Coach made the choice to go with the best player... history.

Obviously Lamb isn't Armanti, but who on this board can say he's not the best QB on the team???

Kam paid his dues for an opportunity to be a starter, not to stay a starter.

First off. Everything you just posted are valid points. I don't pretend to have all of the answers and no I cannot say that everyone would feel that way. But the feelings of the team and how they MAY react have to be taken in consideration by the coaching staff when pondering such a move. I imagine that when the players watch the film they will see how calm and professional Lamb carried himself on the field and they may be OK with such a move.

Here is a question for you. Do you think that SS had a hand in the decision to make AE the starter? I don't know, just speculation. If so, then he has some experience in the situation and will handle it accordingly. I agree with your statement that Kam paid his dues for the opportunity, not to stay the starter. I liked what I saw from Lamb and I think he offered a glimpse of the future. But there is a reason that he didn't start the season as the starter. Playing sports in high school, every coach will tell you that if there are two players (a senior and a junior) of equal ability then they will take the younger one. So if they were equal coming out of camp then Lamb should have been the starter. I do think that Lamb can develop through the season to take the job. However, two series in a game is not enough of a body of work IMO.

For the sake of our program I hope Coach Satt doesn't rely on the general consensus of the team when making QB decisions. It would be ideal for the team to be behind the decision but there will always be detractors. Think about benching 5th year senior JLJ last season in favor of Kam, a Sophomore. The right decision is often very unpopular. I don't know how unpopular that decision was but I bet there were several strong JLJ supporters on the roster.

As for your question, my guess is that as the QB coach, SS definitely had a say in benching Elder for AE but Jerry Moore ultimately made the call as head coach.

Further, I believe the reason why Kam was made the starter in camp is for the reason you just mentioned: experience. Taylor had yet to see live action.

I saw Kam struggle big time yesterday. A big part of the struggle was our subpar stable of WRs were simply not able to get open (making it more obvious how valuable Peacock and T-Wash were to our offense). So, that part is legitimately not Kam's fault. But Kam does hang onto the ball WAY too long (as many here have pointed out) and doesn't make great throws. From what I saw from Lamb, the opposite is true. He has good instincts and makes strong, timely throws. While Kam is perfectly capable of starting and beating Campbell, I hope SS gives Lamb some significant reps.

Also, yes, I know Lamb wasn't facing the starting 11 on defense vs. Michigan

I say all of this with no malice towards Kam as I am a big fan of how he represents OUR team. There's no one on the team more deserving of QB glory than him. He's a leader and has worked hard (in fact, someone in the athletic dept. told me Kam outworked Jamal last offseason which was a big reason Kam could come up big when Jamal didn't). If there was a button I could push to make Kam the best QB on the team, I'd push it. I just don't think he's the guy.

[AppSt94]

For the sake of our program I hope Coach Satt doesn't rely on the general consensus of the team when making QB decisions. It would be ideal for the team to be behind the decision but there will always be detractors. Think about benching 5th year senior JLJ last season in favor of Kam, a Sophomore. The right decision is often very unpopular. I don't know how unpopular that decision was but I bet there were several strong JLJ supporters on the roster.

As for your question, my guess is that as the QB coach, SS definitely had a say in benching Elder for AE but Jerry Moore ultimately made the call as head coach.

Further, I believe the reason why Kam was made the starter in camp is for the reason you just mentioned: experience. Taylor had yet to see live action.

I saw Kam struggle big time yesterday. A big part of the struggle was our subpar stable of WRs were simply not able to get open (making it more obvious how valuable Peacock and T-Wash were to our offense). So, that part is legitimately not Kam's fault. But Kam does hang onto the ball WAY too long (as many here have pointed out) and doesn't make great throws. From what I saw from Lamb, the opposite is true. He's got good instincts and makes good, timely throws. While Kam is perfectly capable of starting and beating Campbell, I hope SS gives Lamb some significant reps.

Also, yes, I know Lamb wasn't facing the starting 11 on defense vs. Michigan

I say all of this with no malice towards Kam as I am a big fan of how he represents OUR team. There's no one on the team more deserving of QB glory than him. He's a leader and has worked hard (in fact, someone in the athletic dept. told me Kam outworked Jamal last offseason which was a big reason Kam could come up big when Jamal didn't). If there was a button I could push to make Kam the best QB on the team, I'd push it. I just don't think he's the guy.

Once again you have made valid points. I will end on this and give you the last word in this spirited conversation. For the record, I was very impressed with what I saw in Lamb yesterday. His poise was impressive. He had great arm strength. The play where he rolled out and through the ball out the back of the endzone rather than force it was very mature and shows his understanding of the position. (Not unreasonable as a coach's son). The one thing that I haven't seen from TL was the touch that KB put on the TD throw to McElfresh. Not saying he doesn't have it, just didn't see it. But again, my opinion is based on a small body of work. KB has a more proven body of work and I don't necessarily disagree with the evaluations of that body of work from those on this board. I just don't see how some can make an accurate and better evaluation and determination of a starter than the coaches that see them everyday. Thanks for the conversation.

[sixtoes9134]

Plays are whistled dead in scrimmage when defense gets near QBs.

Sometimes things don't become glaringly obvious until the real lights are turned on and things are running at game speed.

[AppSt94]

Plays are whistled dead in scrimmage when defense gets near QBs.

Sometimes things don't become glaringly obvious until the real lights are turned on and things are running at game speed.

I would not argue against that point. I would imagine that the coaches understand that as well. Let's see how this plays out. If KB and TL split reps for Campbell then I would say that they see the same things that you do.

[appstate77]

I am divided on this one. Kam earned the job. However I saw the same thing yesterday that I saw in the Spring Game. Kam was outplayed by Caruso as Lamb was injured. This happening again caused me to wonder. Yesterday Kam looked confused, uncertain, had "happy feet", and held the ball forever. Twice he could have run for first downs but made errant throws. He overthrew Cox in the flat on what could have been a big play. (The big UM Dline may have caused this.) His WR's didn't help as I counted 3 third down conversions lost due to passes dropped, the worst by Jones after which the floodgates opened up on us, and we found ourselves 35 points behind. It wasn't all on Kam to be sure.

When Taylor came in, the feel just changed. He was in charge, confident, made good throws. For sure UM's first D was on the bench planning their evening, but something felt different to me, maybe one of those intangibles that coaches often talk about.

I would be for declaring Taylor the starter for Campbell, much like AE was given the job at the Mars Hill game in '06. As TL has four years eligibility, look at him, conditionally, as the QB for that period unless someone clearly beats him out. Stay with him through the rough spots. Give him a chance to learn and be patient with him. (AE had his head scratching moments too!) If he plateaus or Caruso smokes him, then reopen the position. If Lamb makes steady progress and wins big games, then I say, "look out Sun Belt. The next great App State QB is here and you will have to deal with him through '17. We used to call his Daddy 'Go for 2!'"

For this I shall charge $.02.

[APPARJ]

For the sake of our program I hope Coach Satt doesn't rely on the general consensus of the team when making QB decisions. It would be ideal for the team to be behind the decision but there will always be detractors. Think about benching 5th year senior JLJ last season in favor of Kam, a Sophomore. The right decision is often very unpopular. I don't know how unpopular that decision was but I bet there were several strong JLJ supporters on the roster.

As for your question, my guess is that as the QB coach, SS definitely had a say in benching Elder for AE but Jerry Moore ultimately made the call as head coach.

Further, I believe the reason why Kam was made the starter in camp is for the reason you just mentioned: experience. Taylor had yet to see live action.

I saw Kam struggle big time yesterday. A big part of the struggle was our subpar stable of WRs were simply not able to get open (making it more obvious how valuable Peacock and T-Wash were to our offense). So, that part is legitimately not Kam's fault. But Kam does hang onto the ball WAY too long (as many here have pointed out) and doesn't make great throws. From what I saw from Lamb, the opposite is true. He's got good instincts and makes good, timely throws. While Kam is perfectly capable of starting and beating Campbell, I hope SS gives Lamb some significant reps.

Also, yes, I know Lamb wasn't facing the starting 11 on defense vs. Michigan

I say all of this with no malice towards Kam as I am a big fan of how he represents OUR team. There's no one on the team more deserving of QB glory than him. He's a leader and has worked hard (in fact, someone in the athletic dept. told me Kam outworked Jamal last offseason which was a big reason Kam could come up big when Jamal didn't). If there was a button I could push to make Kam the best QB on the team, I'd push it. I just don't think he's the guy.

Once again you have made valid points. I will end on this and give you the last word in this spirited conversation. For the record, I was very impressed with what I saw in Lamb yesterday. His poise was impressive. He had great arm strength. The play where he rolled out and through the ball out the back of the endzone rather than force it was very mature and shows his understanding of the position. (Not unreasonable as a coach's son). The one thing that I haven't seen from TL was the touch that KB put on the TD throw to McElfresh. Not saying he doesn't have it, just didn't see it. But again, my opinion is based on a small body of work. KB has a more proven body of work and I don't necessarily disagree with the evaluations of that body of work from those on this board. I just don't see how some can make an accurate and better evaluation and determination of a starter than the coaches that see them everyday. Thanks for the conversation.

Well, we can only assess what we see, right? Since he took over last year, I've haven't been confident in Kam's ability to be the kind of QB we need to have a high scoring offense again (I think '13 was the first time since '04 where we didn't break 50 in a game). In fact, I believe SS's play calls have been a reflection of his confidence in Kam to execute on some of the more elaborate reads and passing plays. Either that or Kam has a tendency to throw the 4-5 yard option passes to the sideline.

That being said, from the 13 games I've seen Kam play at QB and the two drives I've seen of Lamb on Saturday - I feel like Taylor Lamb can be a much better QB when given the chance. Put into perspective, that statement makes me seem crazy! But it's a gut feeling based on what I've seen be successful in pervious seasons.

But to your point: "How can you make an accurate and better evaluation than the coaches?" - that's the magic of MMB because none of us can. But seeing as how most of us have seen what successful App State QBs have looked like in the past, I think we have the ability to see the writing on the wall on occasion. Of course, I'm always willing to say "I was wrong" if it doesn't turn out. I would love nothing more than for Kam to prove me wrong.

[App91]

So you are suggesting that the coaching staff may not know what they are doing based on inexperience? SS was responsible for developing a few guys that you may have heard of into quality QB's. Richie Williams, Trey Elder, Armanti Edwards. I think that he knows what he is doing with the QB's and I am sure he knows what he has.

There are intangibles at stake that you and others seem to dismiss as foolish. Kam has been with the program now for three years. He stood in line for the chance to run the team. He stayed prepared for the opportunity and when the opportunity arrived he stepped in for JJ. He paid his dues. Is it reasonable to assume that Taylor Lamb could have been the #2 as a true freshmen last year? Possibly but he wasn't needed and it would have been a throw away season in a year that meant nothing in terms of championships. He is a leader on the team and the his teammates like him. If you yank the guy who won the job after a week one performance against a team that you weren't going to beat anyway, you will lose your team and effectively sign your own pink slip. To put in simpler terms, if you were the coach and pulled the QB that earned the job after 3 qtrs of one game, then you would soon be looking for work because NO ONE would ever want to play for you.

This is not a labor union where seniority rules, this is a results based BUSINESS where jobs are lost based on performance by 18-20 yr olds on the field. Last year the staff was too cautious to pull the trigger and it bit them, another such episode will have them staring at another losing record. How long will that last?

[jamesbo]

The problem is not that KB is the starter. The problem is that Lamb is the backup. We will probably see this same thread two years from now. The only difference being that instead of it being titled "Start Lamb", it will say "Start Caruso". Mark it down.

I think you are right. However, I think it will be a certain mobile QB with two first names that may or may not be committed right now.

Having a serious big play run threat at QB is what you need for this offense to be truly successful.

[GoApps70]

That was one reason we lost so many football games last year,
waiting to change QBs even though it was obvious. We need the
coaching staff to play the best QB and not try to keep doing the
same old crap they did last year. No doubt play Taylor Lamb. He
is by far the better QB.

So you are saying that the coaches are NOT playing the best QB? And how do you know this to be true? What qualifies you to make that determination?

Because I have eyes.

[AppSt94]

So you are suggesting that the coaching staff may not know what they are doing based on inexperience? SS was responsible for developing a few guys that you may have heard of into quality QB's. Richie Williams, Trey Elder, Armanti Edwards. I think that he knows what he is doing with the QB's and I am sure he knows what he has.

There are intangibles at stake that you and others seem to dismiss as foolish. Kam has been with the program now for three years. He stood in line for the chance to run the team. He stayed prepared for the opportunity and when the opportunity arrived he stepped in for JJ. He paid his dues. Is it reasonable to assume that Taylor Lamb could have been the #2 as a true freshmen last year? Possibly but he wasn't needed and it would have been a throw away season in a year that meant nothing in terms of championships. He is a leader on the team and the his teammates like him. If you yank the guy who won the job after a week one performance against a team that you weren't going to beat anyway, you will lose your team and effectively sign your own pink slip. To put in simpler terms, if you were the coach and pulled the QB that earned the job after 3 qtrs of one game, then you would soon be looking for work because NO ONE would ever want to play for you.

This is not a labor union where seniority rules, this is a results based BUSINESS where jobs are lost based on performance by 18-20 yr olds on the field. Last year the staff was too cautious to pull the trigger and it bit them, another such episode will have them staring at another losing record. How long will that last?

There are two ways to look at this. KB won the starting job in spring and fall camp, or Lamb did niot perform well enough to earn it in camp. Either way, you are suggesting that two series in mop up duty is justufication to overrule the performance over weeks of practice and preparation.