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Former athlete sues

appbio91
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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by appbio91 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:06 pm

appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:He should not have been out acting like an idiot gang banging girls with his thug buddy. Go back to Shelby. There's a street over there behind the hospital where you will fit in just fine.
Completely uncalled for. Did you not attend parties on Thursday nights as a college kid? I sure as hell did...

This, to me, is unsurprising behavior from college students...and doesn't make anyone a thug. It certainly isn't anything someone should be kicked off a team for, nor have your name dragged through the mud by administrators, message board denizens, and other students.

Like I said - I hope he wins.
You have a right to believe the girl was a whore and woke up one morning and decided to ruin a bunch of guys lives. Recall it wasn't just Tanyi that was kicked of off of the team. There were at least 4 maybe 5 guys. I have a right to believe something not right happened. What is the difference in veiled accusations against the victim and my straightforward stating what I believe? Do you know what happened? Do I? We are all just shooting our mouths off about something that in reality all we know is what one side or the other has said. I have two college aged girls so I choose to be more sympathetic to the victims. You have your reasons as well. I was intentionally inflammatory because I feel strongly about this. Not just the Tanyi situation the whole idea that a girl has to worry about some predator waiting until the moment when they make a mistake and drink too much around people they don't know well enough and someone takes advantage of that situation. I got drunk and passed out lots of times and woke up in places with people I half knew. The difference being a male is that I did not have to worry about someone trying to stick something in me while I was passed out. Gozo is wrong. For sexual assault that occurs on college campuses the system is heavily tilted in favor of males when alcohol is involved which it almost always is. That is why victims are being advised across the nation to use the code of conduct system on campuses rather than the legal system.

As an aside NPR did a piece on this subject just last night so I was loaded up when I posted the Tanyi Shelby tripe. Also I was in the car with three females listening to the story and to my surprise they largely disagreed with me. Told me I was giving them a get of jail free card and that it is a fact of life that they accept that they must be more careful than guys. So there you go, maybe I am wrong again. I am giving this a hard think.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by appgrad » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:14 pm

appbio91 wrote:
appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:He should not have been out acting like an idiot gang banging girls with his thug buddy. Go back to Shelby. There's a street over there behind the hospital where you will fit in just fine.
Completely uncalled for. Did you not attend parties on Thursday nights as a college kid? I sure as hell did...

This, to me, is unsurprising behavior from college students...and doesn't make anyone a thug. It certainly isn't anything someone should be kicked off a team for, nor have your name dragged through the mud by administrators, message board denizens, and other students.

Like I said - I hope he wins.
You have a right to believe the girl was a whore and woke up one morning and decided to ruin a bunch of guys lives. Recall it wasn't just Tanyi that was kicked of off of the team. There were at least 4 maybe 5 guys. I have a right to believe something not right happened. What is the difference in veiled accusations against the victim and my straightforward stating what I believe? Do you know what happened? Do I? We are all just shooting our mouths off about something that in reality all we know is what one side or the other has said. I have two college aged girls so I choose to be more sympathetic to the victims. You have your reasons as well. I was intentionally inflammatory because I feel strongly about this. Not just the Tanyi situation the whole idea that a girl has to worry about some predator waiting until the moment when they make a mistake and drink too much around people they don't know well enough and someone takes advantage of that situation. I got drunk and passed out lots of times and woke up in places with people I half knew. The difference being a male is that I did not have to worry about someone trying to stick something in me while I was passed out. Gozo is wrong. For sexual assault that occurs on college campuses the system is heavily tilted in favor of males when alcohol is involved which it almost always is. That is why victims are being advised across the nation to use the code of conduct system on campuses rather than the legal system.

As an aside NPR did a piece on this subject just last night so I was loaded up when I posted the Tanyi Shelby tripe. Also I was in the car with three females listening to the story and to my surprise they largely disagreed with me. Told me I was giving them a get of jail free card and that it is a fact of life that they accept that they must be more careful than guys. So there you go, maybe I am wrong again. I am giving this a hard think.
I know that the girl went to the police, and Tanyi had a disciplinary hearing, and in neither case was he arrested or expelled. That tells me everything I need to know.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by appbio91 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:23 pm

appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:
appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:He should not have been out acting like an idiot gang banging girls with his thug buddy. Go back to Shelby. There's a street over there behind the hospital where you will fit in just fine.
Completely uncalled for. Did you not attend parties on Thursday nights as a college kid? I sure as hell did...

This, to me, is unsurprising behavior from college students...and doesn't make anyone a thug. It certainly isn't anything someone should be kicked off a team for, nor have your name dragged through the mud by administrators, message board denizens, and other students.

Like I said - I hope he wins.
You have a right to believe the girl was a whore and woke up one morning and decided to ruin a bunch of guys lives. Recall it wasn't just Tanyi that was kicked of off of the team. There were at least 4 maybe 5 guys. I have a right to believe something not right happened. What is the difference in veiled accusations against the victim and my straightforward stating what I believe? Do you know what happened? Do I? We are all just shooting our mouths off about something that in reality all we know is what one side or the other has said. I have two college aged girls so I choose to be more sympathetic to the victims. You have your reasons as well. I was intentionally inflammatory because I feel strongly about this. Not just the Tanyi situation the whole idea that a girl has to worry about some predator waiting until the moment when they make a mistake and drink too much around people they don't know well enough and someone takes advantage of that situation. I got drunk and passed out lots of times and woke up in places with people I half knew. The difference being a male is that I did not have to worry about someone trying to stick something in me while I was passed out. Gozo is wrong. For sexual assault that occurs on college campuses the system is heavily tilted in favor of males when alcohol is involved which it almost always is. That is why victims are being advised across the nation to use the code of conduct system on campuses rather than the legal system.

As an aside NPR did a piece on this subject just last night so I was loaded up when I posted the Tanyi Shelby tripe. Also I was in the car with three females listening to the story and to my surprise they largely disagreed with me. Told me I was giving them a get of jail free card and that it is a fact of life that they accept that they must be more careful than guys. So there you go, maybe I am wrong again. I am giving this a hard think.
I know that the girl went to the police, and Tanyi had a disciplinary hearing, and in neither case was he arrested or expelled. That tells me everything I need to know.
You are forgetting some of the details big guy. A procedual error occured during the first disciplinary hearing so it was basically declared invalid. In other words no action was taken. ASAP a new hearing was held and he was expelled and kicked off the team. So if it makes you feel superior that he got off on technicality during the first hearing and the DA said there was not enough evidence then by all means. I assume you will one up me here again based on your give a mountaineer a chance thread posts. So I will just say you are right so we can end it here.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by ASUPATCH » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:27 pm

Tanyi was kicked off the team but was not expelled from the University if i am not mistaken.
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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by moehler » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:27 pm

when I was at school, my friends and I had a rule, never, ever, take advantage of a drunk girl, no matter how willing she is at the time, DONT DO IT!!! The Langston case is exactly why you don't touch them, first, their mental capacity to make good decisions might be compromised, and second, your facing charges is she has second thoughts and screams rape, or sexual assault the next day. I have no idea what we did or didn't do to protect his rights and if this lawsuit is valid, but there is no doubt, if him and his buddies, had done the smart, and right thing at that party, he wouldn't be in this mess.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by HkyMtneer » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:06 pm

Gonzo wrote:Ok I've read the complaint. I'm stepping out of objective lawyer mode for this post.

This whole unfortunate story represents the cultural shift we're experiencing, as I like to call it: collective "rape culture" overcompensation and the War on Men. The media, and a lot of high-profile feminists, have convinced a large percentage of Americans that crimes of sexual assault (that are almost exclusively, at least in the eyes of the public, committed by men) are somehow distinct from other crimes, and men shouldn't be affording the same rights of due process as other criminal hearings.

In the 1980's, changes were made to the Federal Rules of Evidence, which changed the rules for these sorts of crimes:

Rule 412: Aka the "Rape Shield Law," this rule denies a defendant the right to subject his accuser to the crucible of cross examination when the questions center around the accusers other sexual behavior or their sexual predisposition. That sort of evidence is very relevant in cases like this one, where we have conflicting stories, one detailing a night filled with indiscriminate fellatio.

Rule 413: Under 413 a prosecutor may introduce evidence of other sexual assaults to prove that the defendant has a propensity to commit the crime. Propensity evidence is barred in any other case because a trial's purpose is to identify the truth for one particular occasion, not someone's propensity, and that sort of information is unfairly prejudicial in relation to its probative value. The big kicker with this rule is that THERE DOESN'T"T EVEN NEED TO BE A FORMAL CHARGE TO INTRODUCE THIS EVIDENCE. Anyone willing to testify, so long as their accusation us sufficiently similar, can present evidence that whoever is accused at trial had "done it before and likely did it again." (This rule hasn't been adopted in North Carolina State Court, or most State courts)

There are a few more that have to do with molestation and applying these rules to civil hearings.

My point is to say that congressional legislation has yielded tangible evidence of the War on Men. It's not just a viral bias anymore.

The campus hearing wasn't a beacon of fairness by any standard either. Apparently the poor bastard was denied representation while his accuser retained an attorney. :shock: If I remember correctly the panel of fact-finders were a mix of students and professors, none of whom were properly instructed to even remotely comply with standard operations in our State or Federal Courts.


I don't blame Tanyi in the least for suing the school. I'm pulling for the dude.
I often disagree with you on a lot of items but I am completely on-board with you on this one. The War on Men is real. Nice post, Gonzo.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by fjblair » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:27 pm

appbio91 wrote:
appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:He should not have been out acting like an idiot gang banging girls with his thug buddy. Go back to Shelby. There's a street over there behind the hospital where you will fit in just fine.
Completely uncalled for. Did you not attend parties on Thursday nights as a college kid? I sure as hell did...

This, to me, is unsurprising behavior from college students...and doesn't make anyone a thug. It certainly isn't anything someone should be kicked off a team for, nor have your name dragged through the mud by administrators, message board denizens, and other students.

Like I said - I hope he wins.
You have a right to believe the girl was a whore and woke up one morning and decided to ruin a bunch of guys lives. Recall it wasn't just Tanyi that was kicked of off of the team. There were at least 4 maybe 5 guys. I have a right to believe something not right happened. What is the difference in veiled accusations against the victim and my straightforward stating what I believe? Do you know what happened? Do I? We are all just shooting our mouths off about something that in reality all we know is what one side or the other has said. I have two college aged girls so I choose to be more sympathetic to the victims. You have your reasons as well. I was intentionally inflammatory because I feel strongly about this. Not just the Tanyi situation the whole idea that a girl has to worry about some predator waiting until the moment when they make a mistake and drink too much around people they don't know well enough and someone takes advantage of that situation. I got drunk and passed out lots of times and woke up in places with people I half knew. The difference being a male is that I did not have to worry about someone trying to stick something in me while I was passed out. Gozo is wrong. For sexual assault that occurs on college campuses the system is heavily tilted in favor of males when alcohol is involved which it almost always is. That is why victims are being advised across the nation to use the code of conduct system on campuses rather than the legal system.

As an aside NPR did a piece on this subject just last night so I was loaded up when I posted the Tanyi Shelby tripe. Also I was in the car with three females listening to the story and to my surprise they largely disagreed with me. Told me I was giving them a get of jail free card and that it is a fact of life that they accept that they must be more careful than guys. So there you go, maybe I am wrong again. I am giving this a hard think.

Your hand wringing, histrionics and hyperbole don't change the facts in this case. College is no different now than it was 30 years ago and it is not full of raging hormone, alcohol fueled males looking to gang bang doe eyed innocent females. If anything the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, who needs facts when you have allegations?

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by RankinApp » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:43 pm

HkyMtneer wrote:The War on Men is real.
:lol:

Where does all the problems of being a white male rank in regards to the War on Christmas? :P
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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by appbio91 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:59 pm

fjblair wrote:
appbio91 wrote:
appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:He should not have been out acting like an idiot gang banging girls with his thug buddy. Go back to Shelby. There's a street over there behind the hospital where you will fit in just fine.
Completely uncalled for. Did you not attend parties on Thursday nights as a college kid? I sure as hell did...

This, to me, is unsurprising behavior from college students...and doesn't make anyone a thug. It certainly isn't anything someone should be kicked off a team for, nor have your name dragged through the mud by administrators, message board denizens, and other students.

Like I said - I hope he wins.
You have a right to believe the girl was a whore and woke up one morning and decided to ruin a bunch of guys lives. Recall it wasn't just Tanyi that was kicked of off of the team. There were at least 4 maybe 5 guys. I have a right to believe something not right happened. What is the difference in veiled accusations against the victim and my straightforward stating what I believe? Do you know what happened? Do I? We are all just shooting our mouths off about something that in reality all we know is what one side or the other has said. I have two college aged girls so I choose to be more sympathetic to the victims. You have your reasons as well. I was intentionally inflammatory because I feel strongly about this. Not just the Tanyi situation the whole idea that a girl has to worry about some predator waiting until the moment when they make a mistake and drink too much around people they don't know well enough and someone takes advantage of that situation. I got drunk and passed out lots of times and woke up in places with people I half knew. The difference being a male is that I did not have to worry about someone trying to stick something in me while I was passed out. Gozo is wrong. For sexual assault that occurs on college campuses the system is heavily tilted in favor of males when alcohol is involved which it almost always is. That is why victims are being advised across the nation to use the code of conduct system on campuses rather than the legal system.

As an aside NPR did a piece on this subject just last night so I was loaded up when I posted the Tanyi Shelby tripe. Also I was in the car with three females listening to the story and to my surprise they largely disagreed with me. Told me I was giving them a get of jail free card and that it is a fact of life that they accept that they must be more careful than guys. So there you go, maybe I am wrong again. I am giving this a hard think.

Your hand wringing, histrionics and hyperbole don't change the facts in this case. College is no different now than it was 30 years ago and it is not full of raging hormone, alcohol fueled males looking to gang bang doe eyed innocent females. If anything the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, who needs facts when you have allegations?
Big words, as always I am impressed.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by APPARJ » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:03 pm

appbio91 wrote:
fjblair wrote:
appbio91 wrote:
appgrad wrote:
appbio91 wrote:He should not have been out acting like an idiot gang banging girls with his thug buddy. Go back to Shelby. There's a street over there behind the hospital where you will fit in just fine.
Completely uncalled for. Did you not attend parties on Thursday nights as a college kid? I sure as hell did...

This, to me, is unsurprising behavior from college students...and doesn't make anyone a thug. It certainly isn't anything someone should be kicked off a team for, nor have your name dragged through the mud by administrators, message board denizens, and other students.

Like I said - I hope he wins.
You have a right to believe the girl was a whore and woke up one morning and decided to ruin a bunch of guys lives. Recall it wasn't just Tanyi that was kicked of off of the team. There were at least 4 maybe 5 guys. I have a right to believe something not right happened. What is the difference in veiled accusations against the victim and my straightforward stating what I believe? Do you know what happened? Do I? We are all just shooting our mouths off about something that in reality all we know is what one side or the other has said. I have two college aged girls so I choose to be more sympathetic to the victims. You have your reasons as well. I was intentionally inflammatory because I feel strongly about this. Not just the Tanyi situation the whole idea that a girl has to worry about some predator waiting until the moment when they make a mistake and drink too much around people they don't know well enough and someone takes advantage of that situation. I got drunk and passed out lots of times and woke up in places with people I half knew. The difference being a male is that I did not have to worry about someone trying to stick something in me while I was passed out. Gozo is wrong. For sexual assault that occurs on college campuses the system is heavily tilted in favor of males when alcohol is involved which it almost always is. That is why victims are being advised across the nation to use the code of conduct system on campuses rather than the legal system.

As an aside NPR did a piece on this subject just last night so I was loaded up when I posted the Tanyi Shelby tripe. Also I was in the car with three females listening to the story and to my surprise they largely disagreed with me. Told me I was giving them a get of jail free card and that it is a fact of life that they accept that they must be more careful than guys. So there you go, maybe I am wrong again. I am giving this a hard think.

Your hand wringing, histrionics and hyperbole don't change the facts in this case. College is no different now than it was 30 years ago and it is not full of raging hormone, alcohol fueled males looking to gang bang doe eyed innocent females. If anything the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, who needs facts when you have allegations?
Big words, as always I am impressed.
Oh, I get it. Because someone else has an opinion that differs from yours, you can mock him and imply the it's impressive that he knows big words (because he's probably dumb! LOL!) without addressing the statement itself.

Cool.
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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by appbio91 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:11 pm



RJ You read way too much into my sarcasm. But thanks it never crossed my mind that he or she might just be dumb. I feel better now.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by nomadb » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:31 pm

RankinApp wrote:
HkyMtneer wrote:The War on Men is real.
:lol:

Where does all the problems of being a white male rank in regards to the War on Christmas? :P
Amen lol

Everybody knows there is not a more oppressed segment of our society than the straight, white, Christian males. Some days I wonder why I even get out of the bed to face all of the obstacles put in the way of me succeeding.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:38 pm

nomadb wrote:
RankinApp wrote:
HkyMtneer wrote:The War on Men is real.
:lol:

Where does all the problems of being a white male rank in regards to the War on Christmas? :P
Amen lol

Everybody knows there is not a more oppressed segment of our society than the straight, white, Christian males. Some days I wonder why I even get out of the bed to face all of the obstacles put in the way of me succeeding.
Two concise posts like these make a pretty comprehensive straw man building how-to. Good work, guys.

First we discussed disparities in our legal system that put men (all men) at a disadvantage. Now it's straight, white, Christian men in the context of every day life. Got it.

You guys know Lanston Tanti is a black guy, right?

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by nomadb » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:07 pm

Gonzo wrote:
nomadb wrote:
RankinApp wrote:
HkyMtneer wrote:The War on Men is real.
:lol:

Where does all the problems of being a white male rank in regards to the War on Christmas? :P
Amen lol

Everybody knows there is not a more oppressed segment of our society than the straight, white, Christian males. Some days I wonder why I even get out of the bed to face all of the obstacles put in the way of me succeeding.
Two concise posts like these make a pretty comprehensive straw man building how-to. Good work, guys.

First we discussed disparities in our legal system that put men (all men) at a disadvantage. Now it's straight, white, Christian men in the context of every day life. Got it.

You guys know Lanston Tanti is a black guy, right?
Lighten up counselor. It's just always funny to me when members of the most powerful segment of society try to stoke outrage about there being some sort of war against them. It's just not true. I would be willing to bet that most rapists never get prosecuted and that the cards are stacked in the favor of the male every time. Read that Rolling Stone article that just came out.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by Gonzo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:22 pm

nomadb wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
nomadb wrote:
RankinApp wrote:
HkyMtneer wrote:The War on Men is real.
:lol:

Where does all the problems of being a white male rank in regards to the War on Christmas? :P
Amen lol

Everybody knows there is not a more oppressed segment of our society than the straight, white, Christian males. Some days I wonder why I even get out of the bed to face all of the obstacles put in the way of me succeeding.
Two concise posts like these make a pretty comprehensive straw man building how-to. Good work, guys.

First we discussed disparities in our legal system that put men (all men) at a disadvantage. Now it's straight, white, Christian men in the context of every day life. Got it.

You guys know Lanston Tanti is a black guy, right?
Lighten up counselor. It's just always funny to me when members of the most powerful segment of society try to stoke outrage about there being some sort of war against them. It's just not true. I would be willing to bet that most rapists never get prosecuted and that the cards are stacked in the favor of the male every time. Read that Rolling Stone article that just came out.
We can take this conversation in that direction if you insist.

According to the complaint (and I remember reading this when the campus trials were happening), the second accuser identified her alleged rapists as "big black men." That was it. She didn't come forward until she saw news stories about another girl being assaulted by "big black men." It was months later and she finally had some big black men to accuse.

According to the complaint, the Director for the Office of Student Conduct brought both accusers in together to draft their statements. That is absolutely unheard of in the real word -- bringing in two people to work together drafting statements of two assaults that allegedly happened months apart and to two different people.

You can tell by the swift nature of the school's punishment; from the media's coverage; even bio's posts at the beginning of this very thread that a central motivation for all the vitriol aimed at Tanyi is the fact that these big black men had harmed an innocent white girl. The witch hunt was on. Only this time the student conduct hearing wouldn't allow an Atticus Finch.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by hapapp » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:43 pm

In the end, this issue will be decided in court, if there isn't a settlement. It certainly appears that the officials in question blundered. However, there should also be a lesson in the choices made that night. For someone who appears to be a very bright individual, he made a pretty poor choice that night. That doesn't warrant what happened to him but it certainly should be a cautionary tale.

Here in Virginia there has been a lot of attention focused on the situation at UVa (alluded to earlier in reference to the Rolling Stone article). It would appear that just the opposite was taking place on that campus. Young women at UVA were being discouraged from pursuing their cases and little, if anything, was being done to their perpetrators.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by appvette » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:10 pm

moehler wrote:when I was at school, my friends and I had a rule, never, ever, take advantage of a drunk girl, no matter how willing she is at the time, DONT DO IT!!! The Langston case is exactly why you don't touch them, first, their mental capacity to make good decisions might be compromised, and second, your facing charges is she has second thoughts and screams rape, or sexual assault the next day. I have no idea what we did or didn't do to protect his rights and if this lawsuit is valid, but there is no doubt, if him and his buddies, had done the smart, and right thing at that party, he wouldn't be in this mess.
You've been trained well. Why is the drunk female incapable of deciding what is best for herself but the drunk male is not only capable but responsible for deciding what is best for both parties? I'll agree, if a male is sober and female is trashed, don't even mess around. But as others have pointed out, our culture is now saying that if two drunk people have sex and one regrets it the next day, it could ruin the male's life. That scenario is terrible and of course rape is terrible so we shouldn't overreact one way or another.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by bcoach » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:53 pm

Lot's of excuses no solutions.

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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by asu66 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:49 pm

hapapp wrote:In the end, this issue will be decided in court, if there isn't a settlement. It certainly appears that the officials in question blundered. However, there should also be a lesson in the choices made that night. For someone who appears to be a very bright individual, he made a pretty poor choice that night. That doesn't warrant what happened to him but it certainly should be a cautionary tale.

Here in Virginia there has been a lot of attention focused on the situation at UVa (alluded to earlier in reference to the Rolling Stone article). It would appear that just the opposite was taking place on that campus. Young women at UVA were being discouraged from pursuing their cases and little, if anything, was being done to their perpetrators.
I've been reading about some of the UVA "situations" and just finished reading the Rolling Stone article. It, BTW, has caught on with the mass electronic media. ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox and CNN all carried news reports earlier today. More to come I'm certain.

Here in NC, ASU isn't alone with the bad publicity. Both Duke and UNC, among several others, are drowning in disputed cases.

And who can forget this case? http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights ... e-culture/
If it happens to the Apps, it happens to me!

sonsofyosef
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:51 pm
School: Appalachian State
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Re: Former athlete sues

Unread post by sonsofyosef » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:07 am

ASUPATCH wrote:Urban Dictionary

gangbang-
When multiple partners, usually 3 or more, engage in sexual intercourse with a single willing partner.

This wasn't a gang bang but a rather common occurrence on college campuses called a consensual threesome.
I agree. It's part of what's now called "hookup culture"

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... de/309062/

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