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The other coaches, how did they do it?

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The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by wncapp78 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:10 pm

I don't want to be snarky. I want to see improvements, even gradual improvements even though I've waited a long time. I just don't see improvements in talent evaluation, offense or defense. And we STILL have players getting suspended.
ETSU fired their non performing coach. Year 2 of new coach and they are IN.
UNCW fired some unknown coach. Who knows why? Same exact time we hired our coach they hired their coach. Year 3 and they are IN.
UNCA's coach, after losing the top player to transfer before his first year and after his first and second years took them to NCAA in year 3. This year in year 4, they were likely better than last year, but lost in their tourney when GW guard dropped 51 points in the game. A few comparisons--UNCA beat Coastal on the road, we didn't. Beat Furman on the road (see below for how we fared our last 2 games against Furman). Beat Western. We well, you know.
Furman, a terrible program for years, hired a coach who has in each of his 4 years, has made continuous improvements in wins each year, wins 21 this year and ties for first in the SoCon this year (they beat us each of the last two years, didn't play them this year thank goodness).
New Mexico State--know them??? IN in coach's first year. I went to Las Crusis for our football game this year. Makes Boone and WNC seem like NYC. " If you can win there you can win anywhere".
Other mids---Nevada. IN in coach's second year. Bucknell IN in coach's second year.
Let's move on up. Vandy, IN in coaches first year. Buzz (the other one) has VaTech IN in his third year.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by /\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:55 am

I know Fox didn't inherit the best of teams, but there have been little to no improvements over the past three years. Hell, Fox's best year was his first year record wise, and that was after taking over the team with a short turn around. I don't expect much to change over the next couple of years. We might finish with a better conference record, but wouldn't expect a winning record. I hope I am wrong and things are straightened up, but my optimism is at a low point at the moment.
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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by WVAPPeer » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:50 am

Not an argument - just a statement - the first 3 schools you mentioned UNCA, UNCW and ETSU are all "basketball schools" and each has a history of solid basketball ---
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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by app97 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:56 am

also, most of the programs you've mentioned have just recruited better players, possibly partly due to them being "basketball schools". UNCA might not out-recruit us often, but the Big South is not near as strong as the Sun Belt in bball from top to bottom, IMO. We haven't built a basketball culture like some of the other schools. Think about our football program. Kids want to play football for App State because of the reputation/culture that we've built for decades.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by NavyApp » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:57 am

Personally I think this team has no identity, no calling card, something to hang their hats on. I think that should be one of the first things to be addressed this off season; who is this team going to be? Are we going to be a pace and space team? A finesse and precision team? A defensive havoc team? Someone (Coach) needs to figure that out now based on the team that is there and start pushing them in that direction.

Also if our team wants to compete next year they have to play better defense plan and simple. As the team is currently constructed I personally believe half court man to man is out of the question, it will lead to too many mismatches. We could move to a zone trapping scheme ala Syracuse, but that takes superior coaching, time and a complete buy in by the players so I'm not sure if that's the answer for us either. Then there is the option I believe we could pull off, an all out pressure D ie; Press Virginia. What that takes is effort massive amounts of effort and solid SC program. Which to me makes that void the biggest one need to be filled in the program.

I really want to see some changes this year on court, I'm not expecting a miraculous turnaround but I need to see a team that fights and plays tough every second of every game. I believe they can but only time will tell.
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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by WataugaMan » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:38 am

Since we're not a "basketball school" have we accepted a culture of losing in that sport? If so, why even have the program? Being the "Cleveland Browns" of college basketball does get old after awhile. :D

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by MtnMan09 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:56 am

I feel the "basketball school" argument is somewhat of a cop out. I refuse to believe that ETSU, UNCA, and UNCW are such "basketball schools" that they can win 20 games or make the NCAA's and we can't even fare bare than bottom feeder of the Sunbelt. There is a hugeee disconnect. We aren't even talking making the tournament at this point, we just want to have a winning record (heck maybe have a double digit win season). We aren't comparing ourselves to Kansas. Its ETSU. We should be able to accomplish this.

I say all of this without having the slightest idea what the solution may be. I really wanted Fox to succeed and like him personally. I just don't see a road forward for him at this point past the next season.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by EastHallApp » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:43 am

New Mexico State has been a good program for many years and is by far the biggest name left in the WAC, so the "if you can win there you can win anywhere" comment doesn't really hold water for them. Some of the other programs you mentioned were not really rebuilding jobs either. But still, fair question in the broader sense.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by Rekdiver » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:19 am

Fox's first year was a throw away. APR issues and the Devonte Freeman fiasco hurt...Buzz stiffing us again hurt. Chicken/Egg (no crowds) hurt. This is a 5 year project and Fox will be entering what is really his 3rd year. I might suggest a change in an assistant or 2 and find an up and coming recruiter. The x's and O's Fox can handle.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by appdaze » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:40 am

The Devonte fiasco is still lingering. It is a weapon for other schools in recruiting. It will take a few more years for that to fade. At this point this is all Fox. These are his players now. You have to count the first year as part of his tenure regardless of what good or bad he stepped in too. I've been patient with him the past few years knowing what he came in to but its time to show some progress or move on. The whole waiting game has got to come to a stop at some point.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by Rekdiver » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:43 am

Took Dean Smith a few years too..........

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by Stonewall » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:16 pm

"March Sadness"

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by NavyApp » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:26 pm

Rekdiver wrote:Took Dean Smith a few years too..........

Dean Smith had one losing season, his first in a 17 game season and went 8-9. Fox's best season was still 5 games under .500. Does he deserve time to build this program the right way? Heck yes! Do I think it is time to start seeing progress on the court? Heck yes! No matter what if next years team plays with the same effort I saw out of this years team then it will 100% be time for a change.
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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by Rekdiver » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:16 pm

Dean Smith at UNC
8-9
15-6
12-12
15-9-Students hung Smith in effigy 1964-65
16-11
1966-67 1ST NCAA appearance with a 20+ win season

It took him a few years at a premier institution.
Fox ain't had that luxury.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by MtnMan09 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Rekdiver wrote:Dean Smith at UNC
8-9
15-6
12-12
15-9-Students hung Smith in effigy 1964-65
16-11
1966-67 1ST NCAA appearance with a 20+ win season

It took him a few years at a premier institution.
Fox ain't had that luxury.
I am a little lost on the point being made. Smith only had one year with a single digit win season in his first few years. 8 wins to 15 in a season is a solid jump. Are you saying its not realistic to expect better than 9 win seasons and 20 point blow outs? If that's the case I agree with the a poster on another thread that we should just shutter the program. But I refuse to believe that. Yeah it took Smith a few years to make the NCAAs, but at this point that is the least of our worries. A .500 season would just be nice.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by scatman77 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:29 pm

Rekdiver wrote:Dean Smith at UNC
8-9
15-6
12-12
15-9-Students hung Smith in effigy 1964-65
16-11
1966-67 1ST NCAA appearance with a 20+ win season

It took him a few years at a premier institution.
Fox ain't had that luxury.
Plus Smith followed the legend, Frank McGuire. Who did Fox follow? A current basketball analyst.
We don't slide at Appalachian State. It's a sign of weakness.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by Rekdiver » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:36 pm

Point is simple I thought. It took Dean Smith 6 years to get to the Dance and a non 20 win season is unacceptable especially after teh successes of his predecessor. We've had a mess for years....it make take Fox a few more.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by RollNeers » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:41 pm

I'm caustically optimistic about next season. If we can get one more player to step up whose name isn't Ronsahd or Isaac Johnson I think we can have a winning record. We need Kelvin Robinson to grow up and improve this summer and Hunter Seacat to be any resemblance of a big man (something we haven't seen in a long time.) I still think Fox can do good things but if I doesn't start next season it's never gonna happen IMO.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by EastHallApp » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:50 pm

If we're doing comparisons, maybe Bob McKillop would be a better one:

4-24
10-19
11-17
14-14
22-8

BTW, McKillop didn't get Davidson to the NCAA Tournament until his ninth season (sadly, at App's expense). I was a student at the time, and I didn't realize he'd never been been before that. That was the year we were 15-0 vs. the rest of the SoCon but 0-3 vs. Davidson.

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Re: The other coaches, how did they do it?

Unread post by WVAPPeer » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:39 pm

EastHallApp wrote:If we're doing comparisons, maybe Bob McKillop would be a better one:

4-24
10-19
11-17
14-14
22-8

BTW, McKillop didn't get Davidson to the NCAA Tournament until his ninth season (sadly, at App's expense). I was a student at the time, and I didn't realize he'd never been been before that. That was the year we were 15-0 vs. the rest of the SoCon but 0-3 vs. Davidson.
Wow - I did not realize he has those kinds of seasons early on - nor did I realize it was his 9th year before he got into the NCAAs ---
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