18-19 Hopes/Expectations

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appgrouch
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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by appgrouch » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:03 am

TheMackAttack wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:26 pm
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:55 pm
How can you give a guy with a 45-78 record an extension? The strong end of the season finish pushed back some termination talks on here, but you can't give an extension to someone that has nothing to show.
Not giving him an extension is cutting off your nose to spite your face. We have already heard stories about Coach Fox's contract status is hurting our recruiting, if we were going to making a coaching change it should have already happened. I think we should give him a three year extension with low buyouts on years two and three. It's a fair compromise that gives Coach Fox the opportunity to prove that his program has turned a corner and if not we will be able to move on without hurting the program significantly.
His record is hurting recruiting more that his contract.
Both W/L and Players who have left the team that he recruited.


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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by firemoose » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm

appgrouch wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:03 am
His record is hurting recruiting more that his contract.
Both W/L and Players who have left the team that he recruited.
Sorry but this is not a correct statement. Not saying that record, attendance, atmosphere, etc, haven't lost us recruits in past classes and I've said so many times. These kids have many options and after visits to multiple schools they choose to sign elsewhere. Nature of any sport, even the all mighty football. But this 2018 class (2019 as well), and especially recently, we've lost several top targets who could have had an early impact because of the uncertainty surrounding the staff situation. They wanted to come but not if the staff who was recruiting them was not going to be here. Now our last two spots will more likely be filled with development guys unless we get lucky.

I have no problem with people expressing opinions about recruiting but please base them on fact.

And the deal is done.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Saint3333 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:32 pm

So no excuses on the recruiting class for 2019 then.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:49 pm

firemoose wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm
appgrouch wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:03 am
His record is hurting recruiting more that his contract.
Both W/L and Players who have left the team that he recruited.
Sorry but this is not a correct statement. Not saying that record, attendance, atmosphere, etc, haven't lost us recruits in past classes and I've said so many times. These kids have many options and after visits to multiple schools they choose to sign elsewhere. Nature of any sport, even the all mighty football. But this 2018 class (2019 as well), and especially recently, we've lost several top targets who could have had an early impact because of the uncertainty surrounding the staff situation. They wanted to come but not if the staff who was recruiting them was not going to be here. Now our last two spots will more likely be filled with development guys unless we get lucky.

I have no problem with people expressing opinions about recruiting but please base them on fact.

And the deal is done.
I assume the correct interpretation of that last statement is that Fox will get some type of extension.

I want to be crystal clear on my position. Gillin has my trust and support for whatever decision he makes based on his very successful track record. I have always said any coaching contract decision should be based on some mutually agreed metrics between the coach and AD early in the cycle. Gillin strikes me as a guy who would have established those metrics with Fox day one. From the outside (which is all I have) things don't look good BUT the AD knows much more about the facts based on the body of work so I will fully trust Gillin. I know when Tom Butters initially supported Coach K after 3 yrs folks wanted his head but Butters got the last laugh. I WANT Gillin to get the last laugh as it will mean App will be successful in MBB again.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by firemoose » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:03 pm

Who's making excuses? I stated facts, both in regards to the record, attendance, atmosphere, etc, I mentioned and also contract uncertainty as regards to recruiting. Never once did I say they were excuses. I stated that we have not signed recruits and those reasons, in various forms, were given.

I'm not playing games here. I don't know everything but I do know how to state an opinion (which I will always say as such) and give information based on facts known. And even though my new duties at 247 take up a ton of time I've still tried to stay on here and bring what information I could to the board. The posting on here and the reputation this board has at App have been putting a strain on my relationships. One way to fix that.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Stonewall » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:16 pm

The following is my opinion :If we have lost our top two recruits because of Jim's contract status , but now have granted an extension, Doug has indeed made an error. At least in timing. A contract extension , if there was to be one , should have been agreed upon based upon "metrics" established preseason, and even if not signed, recruits could have been given the assurance that the goals were met and there will be an extension. Realistically , I have no way to justify an extension with a year left on the contract given a .34ish winning percentage after four miserable years.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Saint3333 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:29 pm

We should only have one open scholarship as of 4/4/18 due to attrition which one can't control.

However we have an additional scholarship open due to a range of reasons (you call them facts, I called them excuses earlier), attendance, results on the court, contract length, etc.

Neither one of our terms is inaccurate.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by firemoose » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:48 pm

Saint3333 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:29 pm
We should only have one open scholarship as of 4/4/18 due to attrition which one can't control.

However we have an additional scholarship open due to a range of reasons (you call them facts, I called them excuses earlier), attendance, results on the court, contract length, etc.

Neither one of our terms is inaccurate.
We have one scholarship due to attrition (Cottrell). We had two for 2018 due to graduation (Hinton, Kinney), one of which is filled with Delph. If graduation is an excuse then I guess you are correct.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Saint3333 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:13 pm

I must not have explained it clearly above. We knew two were graduating, therefore one of the open scholarships at this stage in a recruiting cycle is a miss on this staff's part.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by appst89 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:18 pm

firemoose wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:03 pm
the reputation this board has at App
I've got a lot I'd like to say about that, but I'm going to bite my tongue.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Saint3333 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:29 pm

Moose there are many opinions out there, I certainly don’t agree with all of them either. But we can have a reasonable discussion and agree to disagree about a variety of topics while still agreeing 90% of time.

That is what makes this board and those like it special. At the end of the day we all want the best for this great university.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by WataugaMan » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:26 am

appst89 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:18 pm
firemoose wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:03 pm
the reputation this board has at App
I've got a lot I'd like to say about that, but I'm going to bite my tongue.
That just means they read and care (in both a good and bad way) what we think. :D



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by AppOrange » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:41 am

/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:55 pm
How can you give a guy with a 45-78 record an extension? The strong end of the season finish pushed back some termination talks on here, but you can't give an extension to someone that has nothing to show.
Because the man took over a flat out dumpster fire, which IMO has skewed that record dramatically and is not representative of what he can do. We are winning and respectable now, let’s see how high he can take us. I sure am glad Duke didn’t get rid of K after he started 38-47 . . . and he didn’t take over half the mess Fox did. Personally I think we would be very fortunate to lock Coach up for 4 years.


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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Goapps15 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:09 am

I trust DG but I do not believe Jim is the guy. I've been wrong before but I just don't see the HC in him. Hell of an assistant and there is nothing wrong with that.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Stonewall » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:36 am

"We are winning and respectable now" . Factually you will have to redefine "winning" , which I believe requires more wins than losses. Neither overall ,nor in conference play , cumulatively or in any single season,have we achieved "winning".And our attendance numbers clearly reveals we aren't winning " hearts and minds" either.As to " respectability" , in my opinion you have to beat Western , not a high bar , to claim anywhere near "respectability" .Finally , we are now comparing Jim with Coach K ? Good move.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by Saint3333 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:00 am

I would say we are respectable, conference members don't automatically chalk App State as a win on the schedule any longer (other than ULL).

We are trending in the right direction, but the hump we are facing (IMO top four in the SBC and a top 150 RPI rating) may prove tougher than building from dumpster fire levels (which is what Fox inherited).

I really hope Fox and Co. can prove he earned whatever extension he receives next year. Certainly a fan.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by appgrouch » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:02 am

firemoose wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm
appgrouch wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:03 am
His record is hurting recruiting more that his contract.
Both W/L and Players who have left the team that he recruited.
Sorry but this is not a correct statement. Not saying that record, attendance, atmosphere, etc, haven't lost us recruits in past classes and I've said so many times. These kids have many options and after visits to multiple schools they choose to sign elsewhere. Nature of any sport, even the all mighty football. But this 2018 class (2019 as well), and especially recently, we've lost several top targets who could have had an early impact because of the uncertainty surrounding the staff situation. They wanted to come but not if the staff who was recruiting them was not going to be here. Now our last two spots will more likely be filled with development guys unless we get lucky.

I have no problem with people expressing opinions about recruiting but please base them on fact.

And the deal is done.
I am not talking about the ones that didn't make it to campus, I am talking about the ones that have been on campus and left. From this Senior class 6 players have either left the team or transferred out. From this Junior class 4 players have either left the team or transferred out. From this Sophomore class 3 players have either left the team or transferred out. That is 13 players that could have contributed last year or the next 2 years. All of these people came in to the program with Fox having at least 3 more years on his contract.

If you see people fleeing a ship that is taking on water, you don't jump on for a 4 year cruise.


That's what I do. I gripe and I know things.

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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by appgrouch » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:28 am

Stonewall wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:36 am
"We are winning and respectable now" . Factually you will have to redefine "winning" , which I believe requires more wins than losses. Neither overall ,nor in conference play , cumulatively or in any single season,have we achieved "winning".And our attendance numbers clearly reveals we aren't winning " hearts and minds" either.As to " respectability" , in my opinion you have to beat Western , not a high bar , to claim anywhere near "respectability" .Finally , we are now comparing Jim with Coach K ? Good move.
Part of the "Winning" is also looking at who you beat.

16-17 - 8 Sunbelt schools had a winning overall record, 17-18 only 5 teams did. 16-17 - 8 Sunbelt schools had a winning Conf record, 17-18 only 4 teams did with 3 @ .500. The sunbelt dropped 5 places in W/L from 16-17.

We only had 1 win in 5 games with teams that had a winning conference record. We had 2 wins against D1 teams with winning overall records this year (Davidson, Tx Arl). 13-18 in D1 Games

If this is "Winning" and "Respectable" now, we all need to go back to English Class.


That's what I do. I gripe and I know things.

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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by AppGrad78 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:13 pm

appgrouch wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:02 am
firemoose wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm
appgrouch wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:03 am
His record is hurting recruiting more that his contract.
Both W/L and Players who have left the team that he recruited.
Sorry but this is not a correct statement. Not saying that record, attendance, atmosphere, etc, haven't lost us recruits in past classes and I've said so many times. These kids have many options and after visits to multiple schools they choose to sign elsewhere. Nature of any sport, even the all mighty football. But this 2018 class (2019 as well), and especially recently, we've lost several top targets who could have had an early impact because of the uncertainty surrounding the staff situation. They wanted to come but not if the staff who was recruiting them was not going to be here. Now our last two spots will more likely be filled with development guys unless we get lucky.

I have no problem with people expressing opinions about recruiting but please base them on fact.

And the deal is done.
I am not talking about the ones that didn't make it to campus, I am talking about the ones that have been on campus and left. From this Senior class 6 players have either left the team or transferred out. From this Junior class 4 players have either left the team or transferred out. From this Sophomore class 3 players have either left the team or transferred out. That is 13 players that could have contributed last year or the next 2 years. All of these people came in to the program with Fox having at least 3 more years on his contract.

If you see people fleeing a ship that is taking on water, you don't jump on for a 4 year cruise.
Grouch: Maybe you should dig a little deeper. Just one of those players were what could be called an "impact" departure -- Kelvin Robinson. And he was booted off the team when Fox took, in my opinion, a courageous stand against dope smoking. Of the other 12, five were walkons. The remaining seven -- Aaron Scott, Jake Babic, Milos Kostic, Emarius Logan, Hudson Terrell, Patrick Good and Zach Cottrell -- were not going to be major contributors, given the uptick in talent in the last two recruiting cycles.



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Re: 18-19 Hopes/Expectations

Unread post by asu66 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:46 pm

AppGrad78 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:13 pm
appgrouch wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:02 am
firemoose wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm
appgrouch wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:03 am
His record is hurting recruiting more that his contract.
Both W/L and Players who have left the team that he recruited.
Sorry but this is not a correct statement. Not saying that record, attendance, atmosphere, etc, haven't lost us recruits in past classes and I've said so many times. These kids have many options and after visits to multiple schools they choose to sign elsewhere. Nature of any sport, even the all mighty football. But this 2018 class (2019 as well), and especially recently, we've lost several top targets who could have had an early impact because of the uncertainty surrounding the staff situation. They wanted to come but not if the staff who was recruiting them was not going to be here. Now our last two spots will more likely be filled with development guys unless we get lucky.

I have no problem with people expressing opinions about recruiting but please base them on fact.

And the deal is done.
I am not talking about the ones that didn't make it to campus, I am talking about the ones that have been on campus and left. From this Senior class 6 players have either left the team or transferred out. From this Junior class 4 players have either left the team or transferred out. From this Sophomore class 3 players have either left the team or transferred out. That is 13 players that could have contributed last year or the next 2 years. All of these people came in to the program with Fox having at least 3 more years on his contract.

If you see people fleeing a ship that is taking on water, you don't jump on for a 4 year cruise.
Grouch: Maybe you should dig a little deeper. Just one of those players were what could be called an "impact" departure -- Kelvin Robinson. And he was booted off the team when Fox took, in my opinion, a courageous stand against dope smoking. Of the other 12, five were walkons. The remaining seven -- Aaron Scott, Jake Babic, Milos Kostic, Emarius Logan, Hudson Terrell, Patrick Good and Zach Cottrell -- were not going to be major contributors, given the uptick in talent in the last two recruiting cycles.
Of that group, Jake Babic graduated in three years and chose to pass up his last year of eligibility (at App, anyway).


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