Time for Change with App State Basketball

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AppNation85
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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by AppNation85 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:18 am

I never expected us to be a post-season regular but I did hope for improvement. I would actually take Capel's performance over this and the record backs that up. Plus that was in the SoCon which is currently ranked 11th in conference RPI. The Sun Belt is 17th. To be fair the last time we were ever respectable was probably 2006 in Houston Fancher's one good season. Last time before that was 2000 when we made the tournament. We just don't have any tradition in basketball. No fan support to speak of, not enough money for coaches, not in a good basketball conference. The only thing we have is some decent facilities for a mid-major. Until we get basketball squared away we are going to be in the Sun Belt forever. For how bad this conference is in basketball we should be running the joint.


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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by Rekdiver » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:11 am

Can’t compare SoCon today with it during Caple era. We are light years better than we were. Still a long way to go and with a 2 year extension for Fox it is pointless to discuss until year end. I don’t think we can afford to be buying out a contract even then. If you trust DG is doing the right thing with football hirings then trust him to do the right thing with hoops.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by appvette » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:50 am

Seattleapp wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:20 am
We play like we are playing lunch ball at the YMCA. This team has no identity. Can we please stop saying we just need another season or another recruiting class. It would be ok to be losing if we looked like we had some clue as to what we wanted to be. Great defensively, amazing three point shooting team, a 40 minutes of death pressing team. But we are none of that. We just look like a playground team and unless you have Duke type athletes, this is what you get.
Why do we need to specialize in something? When we go back and forth with a team all game and then the other team pulls away in the last few minutes, it means we need to keep doing what we're doing. You can see us change our offensive philosophy in those scenarios.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by 8993 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:12 am

My main frustration here is those people who are defending the situation by saying that we need to give it another year or two until we see significant progress. While not every coaching situation is the same, our expectations for a coach to make progress with a program should not be approximately five years. If this were our football program, there would be riots as to why a coach wasn't fired after four losing seasons in a row. Yes, I know that football and basketball are in two totally different places at App, but realize what you are saying and how hypocritical it is.

Most coaches are not successful in their first season with a new program. Good coaches are able to make that transition after about 2 years. Great coaches make that transition after a year or less. A few coaches that have successfully done that are Kevin Keatts (72-28 at UNCW to 32-13 at NCSU), Grant McCasland (20-12 at stAte to 28-18 at UNT), Chris Holtmann (70-31 at Butler to 36-10 at Ohio State), and Chris Jans (21-12 at Bowling Green to 28-6 at NMSU). Mind you that all of those coaching changes happened between 16-17 and 17-18. So, what I'm saying is that a good coach truly can pick up the pieces and be successful, regardless of the shell of a program that is left behind.

App was in a truly awful place at the end of Capel's time here, we all know that. We also know that it was going to take some time for Fox to make any major improvements to the program. My major quip is that I haven't seen those major improvements, even after year 4. Do we look somewhat better? Of course, but do we look like a program that has had the same coach for 4 years and is making major improvements? Not in the slightest. Coach Fox has not had a winning season in his time at App State and that is very disappointing. This team lacks focus, vision, and knowledge of basic skills, all of which is not the fault of the players.

Do I think we need to pull the trigger and get rid of Fox? Nope. We need to see how this season goes first. Do I think we need to play this out any longer after this season if it still looks the same? I don't know if I have an answer to that yet. App is a mediocre program, so one more year with Fox that would save us money might be okay, but I am very much aware of how that will impact us in the future as we hope to move to a better conference. Football is our money maker, yes, but if our basketball program(s) do not drastically improve, this is where we will need to dig our grave.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by appgrad2010 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:31 am

AppNation85 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:18 am
I never expected us to be a post-season regular but I did hope for improvement. I would actually take Capel's performance over this and the record backs that up. Plus that was in the SoCon which is currently ranked 11th in conference RPI. The Sun Belt is 17th. To be fair the last time we were ever respectable was probably 2006 in Houston Fancher's one good season. Last time before that was 2000 when we made the tournament. We just don't have any tradition in basketball. No fan support to speak of, not enough money for coaches, not in a good basketball conference. The only thing we have is some decent facilities for a mid-major. Until we get basketball squared away we are going to be in the Sun Belt forever. For how bad this conference is in basketball we should be running the joint.
You are clearly mistaken. The 2009-2010 season the Mountaineers completed the year with a 24-13 record and 13-5 in North Division of the Southern Conference. App lost a tough game to Wofford in the SoCon Championship after thumping C of C the previous night. App was selected for the College Inside.com Tournament and defeated Harvard (Jeremy Lin) in Boone, traveled to Marshall (Hassan Whitside) and won, but then lost to a talented Pacific team back in Boone. Attendance was good for App basketball that season, as marketing did promotions for the community and had students involved in ways that actually worked. Plus the players and coaches made a point to talk to fellow students, friends, other athletes, and people in the community to bring them into games through good rapport.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by Seattleapp » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:25 pm

appvette wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:50 am
Seattleapp wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:20 am
We play like we are playing lunch ball at the YMCA. This team has no identity. Can we please stop saying we just need another season or another recruiting class. It would be ok to be losing if we looked like we had some clue as to what we wanted to be. Great defensively, amazing three point shooting team, a 40 minutes of death pressing team. But we are none of that. We just look like a playground team and unless you have Duke type athletes, this is what you get.
Why do we need to specialize in something? When we go back and forth with a team all game and then the other team pulls away in the last few minutes, it means we need to keep doing what we're doing. You can see us change our offensive philosophy in those scenarios.
That’s exactly why we need to be great at something



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by Stonewall » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:10 pm

You can teach anyone to play defense,and rebound. Both are a little technique and a lot of effort. Conditioning science has advanced greatly since my time and just has to have time allocated to it throughout the year. Less time than we thought in yesteryear to be maximumly effective. Sometimes shots just won’t fall but the above should be consistent.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by appvette » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:46 am

I think some people are mistaking the stance of "I hoped we would be better than this in year 5 but there has been improvement and we don't have spare buyout cash laying around so we shouldn't fire him now" with the stance of "this performance is acceptable and I'm happy with where we are". I'm saying we have to see how this plays out because he still has a chance of competing for the sun belt this year and beyond. Besides, there's a risk of buying out his contract and then hiring someone worse like Capel. This approach doesn't mean we have to be happy with come of the late game collapses.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by Saint3333 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:18 am

Same old story. Perform poorly in OOC, hopeful for conference play, finished in bottom half of SBC winning conference games late, hopeful for conference tourney, go 1-1 in tourney.

Like clockwork.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by AppDawg » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:16 am

appgrad2010 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:31 am
AppNation85 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:18 am
I never expected us to be a post-season regular but I did hope for improvement. I would actually take Capel's performance over this and the record backs that up. Plus that was in the SoCon which is currently ranked 11th in conference RPI. The Sun Belt is 17th. To be fair the last time we were ever respectable was probably 2006 in Houston Fancher's one good season. Last time before that was 2000 when we made the tournament. We just don't have any tradition in basketball. No fan support to speak of, not enough money for coaches, not in a good basketball conference. The only thing we have is some decent facilities for a mid-major. Until we get basketball squared away we are going to be in the Sun Belt forever. For how bad this conference is in basketball we should be running the joint.
You are clearly mistaken. The 2009-2010 season the Mountaineers completed the year with a 24-13 record and 13-5 in North Division of the Southern Conference. App lost a tough game to Wofford in the SoCon Championship after thumping C of C the previous night. App was selected for the College Inside.com Tournament and defeated Harvard (Jeremy Lin) in Boone, traveled to Marshall (Hassan Whitside) and won, but then lost to a talented Pacific team back in Boone. Attendance was good for App basketball that season, as marketing did promotions for the community and had students involved in ways that actually worked. Plus the players and coaches made a point to talk to fellow students, friends, other athletes, and people in the community to bring them into games through good rapport.
2009-2010 team was coached by his name who shall not be mentioned with Houston’s players. The fact he came back to Boone and rekindled the “hope” of making it back to the NCAA’s the fanbase was re-engaged. Trivia question... did you know we started that season 7-7.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by appvette » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:23 am

Saint3333 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:18 am
Same old story. Perform poorly in OOC, hopeful for conference play, finished in bottom half of SBC winning conference games late, hopeful for conference tourney, go 1-1 in tourney.

Like clockwork.
We finished in the top half of the conference last year



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by AppHoops » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:59 am

appvette wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:23 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:18 am
Same old story. Perform poorly in OOC, hopeful for conference play, finished in bottom half of SBC winning conference games late, hopeful for conference tourney, go 1-1 in tourney.

Like clockwork.
We finished in the top half of the conference last year
We finished .500 though if I remember correctly. Not exactly great.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by app97 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 pm

AppHoops wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:59 am
appvette wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:23 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:18 am
Same old story. Perform poorly in OOC, hopeful for conference play, finished in bottom half of SBC winning conference games late, hopeful for conference tourney, go 1-1 in tourney.

Like clockwork.
We finished in the top half of the conference last year
We finished .500 though if I remember correctly. Not exactly great.
No, but not sure how more could have been expected in year 4 with the situation Fox inherited, including having to restock the roster in the first few years with walk ons and division 2 level players in order to correct the reputation damage done by the previous regime and to fix the off the court stuff. Last year was in fact a big improvement from the previous 2, however, it looks like this is the year we have the talent and depth to improve upon previous results. Honestly, I feel like a top 4 sun belt finish and a few games above .500 would be a big accomplishment considering our emphasis on football and lack of emphasis of other sports. It took Alabama and Clemson a long time to get basketball above mediocre in their conferences and I feel that we are in a similar situation on a smaller scale, and without the ability to recruit ACC/SEC athletes.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by Yosef10 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:51 pm

8993 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:12 am
My main frustration here is those people who are defending the situation by saying that we need to give it another year or two until we see significant progress. While not every coaching situation is the same, our expectations for a coach to make progress with a program should not be approximately five years. If this were our football program, there would be riots as to why a coach wasn't fired after four losing seasons in a row. Yes, I know that football and basketball are in two totally different places at App, but realize what you are saying and how hypocritical it is.

Most coaches are not successful in their first season with a new program. Good coaches are able to make that transition after about 2 years. Great coaches make that transition after a year or less. A few coaches that have successfully done that are Kevin Keatts (72-28 at UNCW to 32-13 at NCSU), Grant McCasland (20-12 at stAte to 28-18 at UNT), Chris Holtmann (70-31 at Butler to 36-10 at Ohio State), and Chris Jans (21-12 at Bowling Green to 28-6 at NMSU). Mind you that all of those coaching changes happened between 16-17 and 17-18. So, what I'm saying is that a good coach truly can pick up the pieces and be successful, regardless of the shell of a program that is left behind.

App was in a truly awful place at the end of Capel's time here, we all know that. We also know that it was going to take some time for Fox to make any major improvements to the program. My major quip is that I haven't seen those major improvements, even after year 4. Do we look somewhat better? Of course, but do we look like a program that has had the same coach for 4 years and is making major improvements? Not in the slightest. Coach Fox has not had a winning season in his time at App State and that is very disappointing. This team lacks focus, vision, and knowledge of basic skills, all of which is not the fault of the players.

Do I think we need to pull the trigger and get rid of Fox? Nope. We need to see how this season goes first. Do I think we need to play this out any longer after this season if it still looks the same? I don't know if I have an answer to that yet. App is a mediocre program, so one more year with Fox that would save us money might be okay, but I am very much aware of how that will impact us in the future as we hope to move to a better conference. Football is our money maker, yes, but if our basketball program(s) do not drastically improve, this is where we will need to dig our grave.
Realize what you are saying and how little basis in reality it has. This ain’t football. We were one of the absolute worst programs in the country and had a terrible rep to boot because of the Devonte Graham situation. You guys are foolish in your expectations, if he falters in conference play you can continue your campaign to get the man fired. Doubtful that will be the case.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by AppHoops » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:59 pm

app97 wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 pm
AppHoops wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:59 am
appvette wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:23 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:18 am
Same old story. Perform poorly in OOC, hopeful for conference play, finished in bottom half of SBC winning conference games late, hopeful for conference tourney, go 1-1 in tourney.

Like clockwork.
We finished in the top half of the conference last year
We finished .500 though if I remember correctly. Not exactly great.
No, but not sure how more could have been expected in year 4 with the situation Fox inherited, including having to restock the roster in the first few years with walk ons and division 2 level players in order to correct the reputation damage done by the previous regime and to fix the off the court stuff. Last year was in fact a big improvement from the previous 2, however, it looks like this is the year we have the talent and depth to improve upon previous results. Honestly, I feel like a top 4 sun belt finish and a few games above .500 would be a big accomplishment considering our emphasis on football and lack of emphasis of other sports. It took Alabama and Clemson a long time to get basketball above mediocre in their conferences and I feel that we are in a similar situation on a smaller scale, and without the ability to recruit ACC/SEC athletes.
So let's say, hypothetically, Fox doesn't lead this team to a top 4 SBC finish with an above .500 record in the conference. Let's say, at best, he finishes .500 like last year. How long is your leash for him?



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by goapps93 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:27 pm

I'd say if he can't his win percentage over what Capels was soon then he shouldn't get an extension prior to the last year of his contract. I think it's do or die time. Currently the numbers say Capel was a better coach and I don't think that's truly the case but wins and losses are starting to matter more now.


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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by 8993 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:34 pm

Yosef10 wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:51 pm
8993 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:12 am
My main frustration here is those people who are defending the situation by saying that we need to give it another year or two until we see significant progress. While not every coaching situation is the same, our expectations for a coach to make progress with a program should not be approximately five years. If this were our football program, there would be riots as to why a coach wasn't fired after four losing seasons in a row. Yes, I know that football and basketball are in two totally different places at App, but realize what you are saying and how hypocritical it is.

Most coaches are not successful in their first season with a new program. Good coaches are able to make that transition after about 2 years. Great coaches make that transition after a year or less. A few coaches that have successfully done that are Kevin Keatts (72-28 at UNCW to 32-13 at NCSU), Grant McCasland (20-12 at stAte to 28-18 at UNT), Chris Holtmann (70-31 at Butler to 36-10 at Ohio State), and Chris Jans (21-12 at Bowling Green to 28-6 at NMSU). Mind you that all of those coaching changes happened between 16-17 and 17-18. So, what I'm saying is that a good coach truly can pick up the pieces and be successful, regardless of the shell of a program that is left behind.

App was in a truly awful place at the end of Capel's time here, we all know that. We also know that it was going to take some time for Fox to make any major improvements to the program. My major quip is that I haven't seen those major improvements, even after year 4. Do we look somewhat better? Of course, but do we look like a program that has had the same coach for 4 years and is making major improvements? Not in the slightest. Coach Fox has not had a winning season in his time at App State and that is very disappointing. This team lacks focus, vision, and knowledge of basic skills, all of which is not the fault of the players.

Do I think we need to pull the trigger and get rid of Fox? Nope. We need to see how this season goes first. Do I think we need to play this out any longer after this season if it still looks the same? I don't know if I have an answer to that yet. App is a mediocre program, so one more year with Fox that would save us money might be okay, but I am very much aware of how that will impact us in the future as we hope to move to a better conference. Football is our money maker, yes, but if our basketball program(s) do not drastically improve, this is where we will need to dig our grave.
Realize what you are saying and how little basis in reality it has. This ain’t football. We were one of the absolute worst programs in the country and had a terrible rep to boot because of the Devonte Graham situation. You guys are foolish in your expectations, if he falters in conference play you can continue your campaign to get the man fired. Doubtful that will be the case.
Make sure you read all the way to the end of my original post before you try to call me out here and try to say that what I'm saying isn't based in reality. Here, I'll do you one better and even quote what my suggestion was:
Do I think we need to pull the trigger and get rid of Fox? Nope. We need to see how this season goes first. Do I think we need to play this out any longer after this season if it still looks the same? I don't know if I have an answer to that yet. App is a mediocre program, so one more year with Fox that would save us money might be okay, but I am very much aware of how that will impact us in the future as we hope to move to a better conference.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by HkyMtneer » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:23 pm

appvette wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:46 am
I think some people are mistaking the stance of "I hoped we would be better than this in year 5 but there has been improvement and we don't have spare buyout cash laying around so we shouldn't fire him now" with the stance of "this performance is acceptable and I'm happy with where we are". I'm saying we have to see how this plays out because he still has a chance of competing for the sun belt this year and beyond. Besides, there's a risk of buying out his contract and then hiring someone worse like Capel. This approach doesn't mean we have to be happy with come of the late game collapses.
I'll take my chances with DG making a new BBall hire this time around...on his watch...and in the manner that he has been making hires, than to sit on this turd any longer. The stink just gets worse. Could our next coach, and we need a next coach ASAP, be worse than Capel? Maybe. But I highly doubt it would be the man that DG picks. The buyout is relatively minuscule in the grand scheme of things. With a winner on the floor and some hope, god bless some hope, the profit from a few more paying fans in the stands and season tickets sold would more than make-up for the difference in a buyout versus continuing to have to watch an assistant coach, who just so happens to be sitting at the head chair, try and yell his way to garnering attention from almost-grown/grown men.



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by Saint3333 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:17 pm

appvette wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:23 am
Saint3333 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:18 am
Same old story. Perform poorly in OOC, hopeful for conference play, finished in bottom half of SBC winning conference games late, hopeful for conference tourney, go 1-1 in tourney.

Like clockwork.
We finished in the top half of the conference last year
We were 7th out of 12 teams. “Tied for 5th”...

That isn’t good.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... eason/2018



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Re: Time for Change with App State Basketball

Unread post by asu66 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:07 am

If my understanding is correct we're losing over $1 Mil every season on MBB alone. That bleeding needs to stop.


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