Saint Louis game debacle

User avatar
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 2:05 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: Stephens City, VA
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 665 times
Contact:

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by /\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:03 am

13 years of prior college coaching experience, and still things aren't that much better than his predecessor that had 1 year prior coaching experience. Academics and even quality of player recruited have improved, but I seen the same b.s. I did years prior to Fox, except now it's with better players. Absolutely no excuse. It's 5 years in, either the ship needs to change course, or we need to find a new captain. Even if that new captain is just a deckhand.

We went from in the shit house to just outside the shit house. It still stinks.


Twitter: @AST_ThomasLong

yosef69
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:26 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by yosef69 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:30 am

If its true that basketball is bleeding a million a year maybe we need to entirely scrap the program? The team is a laughing stock and has been a laughing stock for quite some time. It's going to take a lot of improvement and probably more investment to go from 1,000,000 in the red to even $1 in the black. Time for dg to give this a lot of th li ight and see where he thinks our bball program can go. I can only help but think it's going to hold our football program back.



User avatar
asu66
Posts: 25394
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2000 1:21 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 889 times
Been thanked: 1095 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by asu66 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:01 am

yosef69 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:30 am
If its true that basketball is bleeding a million a year maybe we need to entirely scrap the program? The team is a laughing stock and has been a laughing stock for quite some time. It's going to take a lot of improvement and probably more investment to go from 1,000,000 in the red to even $1 in the black. Time for dg to give this a lot of th li ight and see where he thinks our bball program can go. I can only help but think it's going to hold our football program back.
Can you name a D-I mid-major institution approaching 20,000 students that doesn't have a MBB program or that has scrapped the program for a club team? Not certain you can.


If it happens to the Apps, it happens to me!

User avatar
8993
Posts: 429
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:18 am
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by 8993 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:55 am

A comment above mentioned that Fox says the right things in interviews and looks like an ideal coach on the surface, which I wholeheartedly agree with. My question now is what is going on behind the scenes that is making this team look so pitiful? They seem to lack motivation and drive, not to mention the basic technical skills that you would expect out of a DI program.

I guess I'm saying that I'm confused by all of this now. If this were our football program, people would have had the torches lit months ago, so I guess torches are being lit now. I do believe in Fox and his skill as an advocate for App, but I do wonder what is happening in practice and these games that makes our team look so miserable.



Stonewall
Posts: 1309
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:26 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 819 times
Been thanked: 493 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by Stonewall » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:09 am

We have better athletes and they continue to underachieve. I would hand the keys to Allison and work short handed the next two years. We know what Fox can do, I bet Allison would do better.Costs us zero .



app97
Posts: 576
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:09 am
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 113 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by app97 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:42 pm

8993 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:55 am
A comment above mentioned that Fox says the right things in interviews and looks like an ideal coach on the surface, which I wholeheartedly agree with. My question now is what is going on behind the scenes that is making this team look so pitiful? They seem to lack motivation and drive, not to mention the basic technical skills that you would expect out of a DI program.

I guess I'm saying that I'm confused by all of this now. If this were our football program, people would have had the torches lit months ago, so I guess torches are being lit now. I do believe in Fox and his skill as an advocate for App, but I do wonder what is happening in practice and these games that makes our team look so miserable.
I’ve wondered about this too. Fox obviously brought a similar system to what Davidson runs, but it almost seems like he’s become less set on a system over the last couple years, based on the amount of shots taken after little ball movement. There seemed to be more constant movement without the ball when he first arrived at App. There’s more watching Shabazz or Forrest do their thing now. Someone mentioned in another thread that we lost a couple of assistant coaches partly due to fox’s lack of flexibility. I don’t know if there’s any merit to that. Of course, I don’t exactly remember Davidson players looking Iike they’re having fun playing. They always seemed to reflect the serious nature of their coach, although Fox doesn’t seem to have that persona.



AppHoops
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:34 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by AppHoops » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:44 pm

The Rock wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:16 pm
Gonzo wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:12 pm
It ain’t working with Fox. That’s undeniable. But we’re not in a position to fire him this season. The extension was a huge mistake.
I agree. Especially a 2 year extension when an extension at all was very questionable.
I really thought he was the right guy early on, and he still says the right things at times in interviews, but the results on the floor just aren’t there. Atrocious shooting, especially 3’s and free throws, no offensive play sets , can’t handle the press, ever and no improvements in the last several years.
We are in a better place than we were when Capel left, but nowhere near where we need to be.
This. 100 times all of this.

I think we all can agree Fox has done an admirable job cleaning up the mess Capel has made. The academics have improved, there is roster stability, there is better scheduling, etc.

That being said, the on court product is sloppy and unorganized. I've watched games trying to figure out exactly what our game plan/system is and I've decided that it's essentially give the ball to Shabazz or Forrest and let them go ISO against whoever is guarding them. Typically this results in a contested three or off balance shot around the rim. Not nearly enough high percentage looks which comes from a lack of ball movement and set plays in the half court.

When Fox was hired my thought process was "okay awesome! he will come in and implement a Davidson type system in Boone. that's exactly what we need!" Yea....that hasn't happened. There is pretty good talent on this roster, but there is no cohesiveness or team identity and that is 100% coaching.



app97
Posts: 576
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:09 am
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 113 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by app97 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:50 pm

AppHoops wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:44 pm
The Rock wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:16 pm
Gonzo wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:12 pm
It ain’t working with Fox. That’s undeniable. But we’re not in a position to fire him this season. The extension was a huge mistake.
I agree. Especially a 2 year extension when an extension at all was very questionable.
I really thought he was the right guy early on, and he still says the right things at times in interviews, but the results on the floor just aren’t there. Atrocious shooting, especially 3’s and free throws, no offensive play sets , can’t handle the press, ever and no improvements in the last several years.
We are in a better place than we were when Capel left, but nowhere near where we need to be.
This. 100 times all of this.

I think we all can agree Fox has done an admirable job cleaning up the mess Capel has made. The academics have improved, there is roster stability, there is better scheduling, etc.

That being said, the on court product is sloppy and unorganized. I've watched games trying to figure out exactly what our game plan/system is and I've decided that it's essentially give the ball to Shabazz or Forrest and let them go ISO against whoever is guarding them. Typically this results in a contested three or off balance shot around the rim. Not nearly enough high percentage looks which comes from a lack of ball movement and set plays in the half court.

When Fox was hired my thought process was "okay awesome! he will come in and implement a Davidson type system in Boone. that's exactly what we need!" Yea....that hasn't happened. There is pretty good talent on this roster, but there is no cohesiveness or team identity and that is 100% coaching.
I agree and mentioned in another thread that he seemed to have more of a system when he first arrived as our coach. I remember constant movement without the ball and hard cuts. One thing I’ve noticed is the better teams that we’ve played almost always have a true, physical post player who is essential in creating for himself or creating open looks for the shooters. We haven’t had one since fox arrived. Ike is a heck of a rebounder, but doesn’t have the true post body and physicality to compete with the big guys at St Louis, Georgetown, bama, etc.



AppHoops
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:34 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by AppHoops » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:00 pm

app97 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:50 pm
AppHoops wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:44 pm
The Rock wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:16 pm
Gonzo wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:12 pm
It ain’t working with Fox. That’s undeniable. But we’re not in a position to fire him this season. The extension was a huge mistake.
I agree. Especially a 2 year extension when an extension at all was very questionable.
I really thought he was the right guy early on, and he still says the right things at times in interviews, but the results on the floor just aren’t there. Atrocious shooting, especially 3’s and free throws, no offensive play sets , can’t handle the press, ever and no improvements in the last several years.
We are in a better place than we were when Capel left, but nowhere near where we need to be.
This. 100 times all of this.

I think we all can agree Fox has done an admirable job cleaning up the mess Capel has made. The academics have improved, there is roster stability, there is better scheduling, etc.

That being said, the on court product is sloppy and unorganized. I've watched games trying to figure out exactly what our game plan/system is and I've decided that it's essentially give the ball to Shabazz or Forrest and let them go ISO against whoever is guarding them. Typically this results in a contested three or off balance shot around the rim. Not nearly enough high percentage looks which comes from a lack of ball movement and set plays in the half court.

When Fox was hired my thought process was "okay awesome! he will come in and implement a Davidson type system in Boone. that's exactly what we need!" Yea....that hasn't happened. There is pretty good talent on this roster, but there is no cohesiveness or team identity and that is 100% coaching.
I agree and mentioned in another thread that he seemed to have more of a system when he first arrived as our coach. I remember constant movement without the ball and hard cuts. One thing I’ve noticed is the better teams that we’ve played almost always have a true, physical post player who is essential in creating for himself or creating open looks for the shooters. We haven’t had one since fox arrived. Ike is a heck of a rebounder, but doesn’t have the true post body and physicality to compete with the big guys at St Louis, Georgetown, bama, etc.
Re the big man -- that's true. I like Isaac Johnson and perhaps he'd be more effective at the five instead of the four. For mid major programs though, back court is key. You have to have guys that can carry you in scoring and create for your team. Most mid majors that play in March have great perimeter play. Having a big man that can big physical on defense and gobble up rebounds to limit opposing possessions and get the ball back to your guards is an important compliment piece.

Shabazz, Forrest and Isaac Johnson seemingly fit that mold but there just isn't any systematic cohesion for the reasons we have all been mentioning.



User avatar
AtlAppMan
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:23 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: ATL
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 314 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:56 pm

I was totally onboard and optimistic Fox was a good hire at the time but unfortunately it has not worked. If you have not seen the progress you needed after 4 yrs (there was only marginal improvements) then an extension was not going to change anything. I thought the extension was a bad idea and hoped DG knew something I didn't but that doesn't appear to be the case. The extension is done so that can't be reversed. We know where this is going, try something, cut your losses and give an assistant the reins, be creative. At least we will be trying to change the course. Doing nothing is a choice too, a bad one. This is like Groung Hog Day.



User avatar
AppGrad78
Posts: 3854
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:33 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: Born: Waynesville, NC; Resides: Greensboro, NC
Has thanked: 1312 times
Been thanked: 541 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by AppGrad78 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:30 pm

An extension was the only reasonable option Gillin had.

If you'll recall in April, Gillin had the choice to ...

1) Fire Fox and pay him roughly $140,000 for not coaching this season (not likely given the team's improvement and .500 record in the Sun Belt last spring).
2) Do nothing and allow his contract to run out this spring (insuring that the team's recruiting targets would sign elsewhere).
3) Offer him a limited two-year extension with the clear understanding that continued improvement was expected.
4) Extend his contract the traditional four or five years (something Fox had not earned).

It's fun to play the shoulda', woulda', coulda' game on a message board but I think most people would have done what Gillin did.



Cro-Magnon App
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:25 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: Western South Carolina
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by Cro-Magnon App » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:48 am

I'm watching the reply right now on FCSP. I haven't been to a game (too far away) but have watched 5 on television including the Charleston tournament. I coached for 35 years at two large high schools which certainly does NOT make me an expert, just saying I know something about the game. Sometimes, we run good schemes/tactics on offense, but inconsistent. Still not real talented, but better than some years. Defensively, we don't get after it possession after possession - lack of determination or motivation. But the biggest thing I see is there is no excitement in the program or in the stands and according to those posting here, neither is there excitement on campus or in the alumni. None generated anywhere. And I find no excitement in myself when watching the game. The admin is surely studying the problem. It is ongoing with our basketball. Maybe the next hire will be lucky and we will get someone like a young Cremins.



Stonewall
Posts: 1309
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:26 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 819 times
Been thanked: 493 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by Stonewall » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:05 am

Conference play starts in two days,time to start winning.



User avatar
AtlAppMan
Posts: 964
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:23 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: ATL
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 314 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:35 pm

Stonewall wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:05 am
Conference play starts in two days,time to start winning.
I didn't realize conference play was the start of the season. Could someone remind me, why do we play out of conference games then? What has all these teams been doing playing games for the last month and a half?
:roll:



Stonewall
Posts: 1309
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:26 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 819 times
Been thanked: 493 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by Stonewall » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:58 pm

AtlAppMan wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:35 pm
Stonewall wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:05 am
Conference play starts in two days,time to start winning.
I didn't realize conference play was the start of the season. Could someone remind me, why do we play out of conference games then? What has all these teams been doing playing games for the last month and a half?
:roll:
It certainly is not , however the default position of some of Choke Fox's defenders is to assess his performance based upon conference play.If that's the bar , it's time to start clearing it .Past time.



bigCasu
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 3:32 pm
School: Appalachian State
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 567 times
Contact:

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by bigCasu » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Saint Louis is likely a tournament team and one of the better teams we have played this season. Our out of conference SOS was 82. The toughest schedule we have played in the Fox era. Not making excuses, just stating facts.



User avatar
/\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 2:05 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: Stephens City, VA
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 665 times
Contact:

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by /\PP ST/\TE GRAD 09 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:10 pm

bigCasu wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:21 pm
Saint Louis is likely a tournament team and one of the better teams we have played this season. Our out of conference SOS was 82. The toughest schedule we have played in the Fox era. Not making excuses, just stating facts.
While true, my personal assessment of this team has nothing to do with the opponent. It's more about the execution regardless of who we play. We've seen games we should have won pissed away due to poor game management. Expectation from me was never to beat St. Louis. Like you I recognize they're a likely tournament team, but just because a team is better than you doesn't mean you have to have a poor strategy on offense.


Twitter: @AST_ThomasLong

User avatar
hapapp
Posts: 14073
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2000 12:48 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: Rocky Mount, VA
Has thanked: 1127 times
Been thanked: 1111 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by hapapp » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:09 am

All our losses were to teams with winning records, some with double digit wins. All of our D1 wins are versus teams with losing records. We have a second chance with the start of conference play. We have to figure out how to finish games if we have any chance to redeem this season.



User avatar
Arsenal App
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:42 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: High Knob, VA
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by Arsenal App » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:07 pm

"Can you name a D-I mid-major institution approaching 20,000 students that doesn't have a MBB program or that has scrapped the program for a club team? Not certain you can.
[/quote]

Miami FL scrapped their basketball program in 1971 due to lack of fan support. They brought it back 15 years later once their football program had achieved national prominence. Tulane scrapped their program for a couple of years back in the 80's because of a point shaving scandal. I suppose that would count.



User avatar
appgrouch
Posts: 954
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:36 pm
School: Appalachian State
Location: In my seat, waiting for people to shut up and play.
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Saint Louis game debacle

Unread post by appgrouch » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:59 pm

AppGrad78 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:30 pm
An extension was the only reasonable option Gillin had.

If you'll recall in April, Gillin had the choice to ...

1) Fire Fox and pay him roughly $140,000 for not coaching this season (not likely given the team's improvement and .500 record in the Sun Belt last spring).
2) Do nothing and allow his contract to run out this spring (insuring that the team's recruiting targets would sign elsewhere).
3) Offer him a limited two-year extension with the clear understanding that continued improvement was expected.
4) Extend his contract the traditional four or five years (something Fox had not earned).

It's fun to play the shoulda', woulda', coulda' game on a message board but I think most people would have done what Gillin did.
Buyout Now $200,000
BuyOut on July 1. 2019 $150,000
BuyOut on July 1 2020 $100,000

Per AppStateSports


That's what I do. I gripe and I know things.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Appalachian Basketball”

  • Who is online