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Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:52 pm
by Stonewall
The extension was a mistake. It's on DG to figure out how to right the ship. If something doesn't change it will speak volumes , we simply have written men's basketball off for the foreseeable future .
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:16 pm
by T-Dog
Stonewall wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:52 pm
The extension was a mistake. It's on DG to figure out how to right the ship. If something doesn't change it will speak volumes , we simply have written men's basketball off for the foreseeable future .
I'm anti-Fox, but the extension was the right move at the time, IMO. Having Fox go into this season as a lame duck year or fire him after his best season would have set the program back even further, IMO.
Cobb wanted Lutz really bad in 2014 to replace Capel, but Lutz passed.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:22 pm
by HighlandsApp
yosef13 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:26 pm
Okay, let's assume it's 200k to buy him out.
Fox is making 260k a year but started at 200k. I would assume our new coach would be in the same salary neighborhood. Let's say 230k per.
If you divide the buyout by the number years for the new coaches contract, assumed to be 4, that would give you a new coach at 230k, with a 4 year annual buyout fee of 50k. Basically you would get a new coach at 280k for 4 years.
Or if you save 30k the first year on a new hire at 230k, the buyout is really only 170k.
170/4= 42.5 + 230 = 272.5k for a new coach.
I'm sure the payout is up front, but if you break it down, it appears to be more affordable.
It will be interesting to see what DG decides to do.
Hire a D111, D11 or a good high school coach and start them at $150k
Angel Elderkin is now at $170k but started at $150k. She is earning her pay. Fox is not.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:38 pm
by The Rock
T-Dog wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Stonewall wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:52 pm
The extension was a mistake. It's on DG to figure out how to right the ship. If something doesn't change it will speak volumes , we simply have written men's basketball off for the foreseeable future .
I'm anti-Fox, but the extension was the right move at the time, IMO. Having Fox go into this season as a lame duck year or fire him after his best season would have set the program back even further, IMO.
Cobb wanted Lutz really bad in 2014 to replace Capel, but Lutz passed.
I agree if it was a 1 year extension, or a 1 year with 2nd year option, but to extend for 2 years after several really bad seasons and one barely mediocre-ish season seemed like a bit of a stretch.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:28 pm
by Arsenal App
Here's my take on the extension: if the money wasn't going to be available for a buyout this year then Gillin would have gone ahead and dropped the axe last year.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:52 pm
by ASU84
Here is my two cents. First off I liked Fox when he was hired and continued till things went south this year. Secondly, he is still under contract and we have been in almost every game we've played. We also have an excellent class coming in next year. Lastly, until we fully fund all scholarships on all App sports teams, any talk of replacing the coach is foolish. Unless we have someone that wants to fund the buyout.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:06 pm
by NoLongerLurking
ASU84 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:52 pm
Here is my two cents. First off I liked Fox when he was hired and continued till things went south this year. Secondly, he is still under contract and we have been in almost every game we've played. We also have an excellent class coming in next year. Lastly, until we fully fund all scholarships on all App sports teams, any talk of replacing the coach is foolish. Unless we have someone that wants to fund the buyout.
That was 3-4 cents, and made no sense.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:28 pm
by InFor6More
Guys we can invest in track and these other areas that need funding once Bobby is cutting down nets. Until then, it’s nonsensical to even discuss going down that path.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:21 am
by Stonewall
I stand on my belief the extension was a mistake , I wanted one more year to evaluate , or at most a one year extension ,but here we are. We passed on Bobby Lutz when we hired Buzz the first time. He made a full court press for the job and he had the resume ,but again we went in a different direction, shortly thereafter so did he.I have followed his career of course but haven't talked to him in a long time.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 am
by Yosef84
The extension was a calculated risk that didn't work out. I agreed with it at the time, and I still have to assume that DG has a strategy for this contingency. Keeping Fox for another season wouldn't be the end of the world but I have to admit it gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I do think we have too much talent on the roster to continue making excuses.
My issue isn't that I don't think Fox can coach. I think he's coaching the second half of this season pretty well, which is the same thing that happened last season. My question is, why is it taking half the season before our guys start playing good basketball. I'm sure I'll get ripped for thinking we are playing pretty well right now, but I've watched a few games lately and it's night and day compared to December. If you want to say I don't know squat about basketball, you probably aren't that far off base.
Note: I read comments from some implying "behind the scenes" issues, but I have no knowledge or details of those issues so I am not including them in my thought process.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:51 am
by Stonewall
Yosef84 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 am
The extension was a calculated risk that didn't work out. I agreed with it at the time, and I still have to assume that DG has a strategy for this contingency. Keeping Fox for another season wouldn't be the end of the world but I have to admit it gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I do think we have too much talent on the roster to continue making excuses.
My issue isn't that I don't think Fox can coach. I think he's coaching the second half of this season pretty well, which is the same thing that happened last season. My question is, why is it taking half the season before our guys start playing good basketball. I'm sure I'll get ripped for thinking we are playing pretty well right now, but I've watched a few games lately and it's night and day compared to December. If you want to say I don't know squat about basketball, you probably aren't that far off base.
Note: I read comments from some implying "behind the scenes" issues, but I have no knowledge or details of those issues so I am not including them in my thought process.
Not knowing much about basketball hasn't prevented any of the rest us from weighing in....
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:14 pm
by AtlAppMan
I always supported Fox hire and still believe it made sense given all we knew at time.
I had hoped he would be successful but it is clear now he isn’t getting it done and a change must occur.
At the time of his extension I didn’t believe it was the right thing to do given his accomplishments and I said it on board. Some on board kept saying you have to because he would be a lame duck and couldn’t recruit. The problem with that logic is, if you can’t buyout a contract then don’t extend. You get in a vicious cycle of extending for the wrong reasons, then regretting it because it didn’t work and then making excuses for it because you are afraid he can’t recruit as a lame duck. More evidence was available then that made a compelling case to not renew than to extend.
So now we are stuck with even more years on contract knowing it will turn out bad. Either cut your losses now or know the program continues to bleed out for several more years until you make a change.
All we are doing is kicking the can down the road and that is worse.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:01 pm
by diehardapp18
Lutz would be a fine hire, but I still think he has no interest in being the head coach here. He'd take it if he needed the job but I just don't see him putting his all into it.
What's insane to me is how we passed on Matt McMahon twice. We've talked it to death, but the absolute obvious hire was right under our damn noses on TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS!! Charlie must have had something against him. McMahon probably loves App basketball more than anyone on this planet. He knows the program and school up and down and would have built an amazing culture.
He's currently on pace to head to the NCAA tournament and has groomed a top 3 pick. Ja Morant was from just down the road. How do we miss on a guy oozing potential like that? From what I've gathered Murray St was his only offer. An elite talent just sitting in your backyard, those are the guys you have to find to build a winner in Boone.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:33 pm
by Arsenal App
As far as Lutz goes I think he would be better than what we have now but I don't think he would build us into any type of basketball power. He'd take us to the next level which for ASU basketball is mediocrity.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:39 pm
by Yosef10
diehardapp18 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:01 pm
Lutz would be a fine hire, but I still think he has no interest in being the head coach here. He'd take it if he needed the job but I just don't see him putting his all into it.
What's insane to me is how we passed on Matt McMahon twice. We've talked it to death, but the absolute obvious hire was right under our damn noses on TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS!! Charlie must have had something against him. McMahon probably loves App basketball more than anyone on this planet. He knows the program and school up and down and would have built an amazing culture.
He's currently on pace to head to the NCAA tournament and has groomed a top 3 pick. Ja Morant was from just down the road. How do we miss on a guy oozing potential like that? From what I've gathered Murray St was his only offer. An elite talent just sitting in your backyard, those are the guys you have to find to build a winner in Boone.
I don’t disagree with anything you said, but since when is Sumter, SC “just down the road”? Many things to fault Fox for but idk about this.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:05 pm
by diehardapp18
Yosef10 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:39 pm
diehardapp18 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:01 pm
Lutz would be a fine hire, but I still think he has no interest in being the head coach here. He'd take it if he needed the job but I just don't see him putting his all into it.
What's insane to me is how we passed on Matt McMahon twice. We've talked it to death, but the absolute obvious hire was right under our damn noses on TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS!! Charlie must have had something against him. McMahon probably loves App basketball more than anyone on this planet. He knows the program and school up and down and would have built an amazing culture.
He's currently on pace to head to the NCAA tournament and has groomed a top 3 pick. Ja Morant was from just down the road. How do we miss on a guy oozing potential like that? From what I've gathered Murray St was his only offer. An elite talent just sitting in your backyard, those are the guys you have to find to build a winner in Boone.
I don’t disagree with anything you said, but since when is Sumter, SC “just down the road”? Many things to fault Fox for but idk about this.
Fine, but that's still in the area that we hardcore recruit. You've just gotta find the guys like that to build a winner here.
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:06 pm
by asu66
This is a general reply to several posts just to slightly steer the discussion, FWIW...
Do your research and you'll find that Fox started at $150K. It's a matter of record. No way Cobb way payin' a newbie $200K. He was still trying to recover his "reserve fund" from payin' Fancher's buyout.
Oh, and no way is App hirin' a high school coach as head coach of a so-called marquee varsity revenue sport. Just ain't happenin ' in our lifetimes...
Re: New Hire
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:07 pm
by Stonewall
The McMahon screwup reminds me of when we passed on Fisher DeBerry a few decades back.
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:17 pm
by asu66
Stonewall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:07 pm
The McMahon screwup reminds me of when we passed on Fisher DeBerry a few decades back.
Bingo! Right on target!
Instead of DeBerry we got Working; instead of McMahon we got Capel...forming the two most costly and most embarrassing HR decisions in App State Athletics history! There have been others with lackluster results, but none sink to the level of Working and Capel.
Re:
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:29 pm
by Stonewall
asu66 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:17 pm
Stonewall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:07 pm
The McMahon screwup reminds me of when we passed on Fisher DeBerry a few decades back.
Bingo! Right on target!
Instead of DeBerry we got Working; instead of McMahon we got Capel...forming the two most costly and most embarrassing HR decisions in App State Athletics history! There have been others with lackluster results, but none sink to the level of Working and Capel.
...and what could have been.