Sunbelt Tournament Rnd 3 vs Coastal Carolina (Sunday 9pm)

[AppStateNews]

That's precisely what I am saying. The ball was inbounded and touched by Delph. Therefore, the clock started -- and thus, it was not fouling a player specifically designed to keep the clock from starting.

Again, you will be hard pressed to find a ref call that "specifically designed to stop the clock" foul because it can be argued the offensive player just made a good move and got away. Obviously, that is not the case, but that's what the argument against calling that is.

[WVAPPeer]

"Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting"

This is why you have RJ stand at the opposite FT line and don't move.

Yep - because they would have to put a defender back with him and I would move him the side so the defender can't just stand in the middle of the court just over half-court - this also gives the 4 guys out there to have more room to operate -

[hapapp]

That's precisely what I am saying. The ball was inbounded and touched by Delph. Therefore, the clock started -- and thus, it was not fouling a player specifically designed to keep the clock from starting.

Again, you will be hard pressed to find a ref call that "specifically designed to stop the clock" foul because it can be argued the offensive player just made a good move and got away. Obviously, that is not the case, but that's what the argument against calling that is.

The rule also says to stop the clock.

[asu66]

Duhart having himself his best game of the season

RJ apparently has earned Kerns' trust. That bodes well for his junior and senior seasons. His court presence has come a long way since August. In one way of looking at last night's game, RJ was the difference. Of course, that could be said about other guys as well. I think for a lot of us, his play (holding his own for 41 minutes in a pressure-packed game) came as a nice surprise.

[scatman77]

The foul by Forest at the end of regulation, once ball got over half court, coach Kerns was yelling to foul. I thought the foul was prior to the act of shooting. The “act” of the attempt to shoot, was akin to flopping....... should have been a two shot foul.

I was thinking the exact same thing: a "flop" attempt at a shot and the ref choked the call.

[EastHallApp]

That's precisely what I am saying. The ball was inbounded and touched by Delph. Therefore, the clock started -- and thus, it was not fouling a player specifically designed to keep the clock from starting.

Again, you will be hard pressed to find a ref call that "specifically designed to stop the clock" foul because it can be argued the offensive player just made a good move and got away. Obviously, that is not the case, but that's what the argument against calling that is.

The rule also says to stop the clock.

Exactly - I get the point that it's subjective but that's about as obvious as it can get. He was on the opposite side of the court from the ball (i.e., "clearly away from the ball" and "not directly involved with the play," and the dude literally tackled him.

Just because "it can be argued" the other way doesn't mean you have to buy that argument. Lots of calls can be argued, but the refs still make them.

If you're not going to call it there then just take it out of the rule book.

[AppStateNews]

Take a look at it from another perspective...

Say there are 10 minutes left, we are in bounding the ball with same formation. RJ beat's his defender, Almonacy throws the full court pass and a dunk. 2 points! Or, RJ beats his defender and knowing nobody is back, the defender grabs RJ since the defender is out of position. Do you call the foul? Yes. Is it a Flagrant in that case? No. Does RJ get two shots? Yes.

Now, go to the OT.. as an official, you have to call the game the same way regardless of how much time is on the clock. The ref will ALWAYS interpret the defender out of position (regardless of time) if the offensive player is trying to get away from them (and obviously the defender is actually out of position). Whether that is right is a completely different topic. But, that is how it is and will likely always be. Everyone in the game knows this. That's likely the reason Kerns didn't argue it once given an explanation after questioning the call.

Had RJ been stationary as suggested before (and I've been corrected with the rule changes -- that does matter now thanks to "hack-a-Shaq" tactics) or setting a screen like usually happens in these scenarios with big men/poor free throw shooters and he is fouled, then yes, Flagrant 1.

I would bet Ellis told RJ's defender "if he makes a play to get away from you, foul him. If he stands still or sets a screen, don't foul." You can actually see Delph's defender going for the foul as the whistle is blown. We all know it was to stop the clock. However, RJ made a "basketball move" (for a lack of a better term) and the defender "got beat and was out of position."

[BUTCH1991]

Let's get real, the defender did not make a basketball move and if that's going to be interpreted as a normal foul, it needs to be corrected. If you announce before the play that you're going to foul X guy, then it's intentional and that needs to be corrected. And yes, I believe you get hit with the intentional foul on a breakaway where you just grab the guy.

[AppStateNews]

And yes, I believe you get hit with the intentional foul on a breakaway where you just grab the guy.

If the offensive player is already past the defender and has a clear lane (with ball), then yes. If the defender is still in the way but out of position and fouls the guy, then no.

The foul on RJ was actually called before the defender wrapped him up. RJ made the cut inside and defender bumped him of his path -- thats where the foul was called. Then the defender wrapped him up.

From a fan standpoint -- yes, it's a flagrant. From a former player, coach, and collegiate official standpoint, that will very rarely get called. 99.99% of the college officials will not call that since RJ was trying to "get away."

[asu66]

Duhart having himself his best game of the season

RJ apparently has earned Kerns' trust. That bodes well for his junior and senior seasons. His court presence has come a long way since August. In one way of looking at last night's game, RJ was the difference. Of course, that could be said about other guys as well.

I think for a lot of us, his play (starting and holding his own for 40 minutes in a pressure-packed game) came as a nice surprise.

[hapapp]

"Say there are 10 minutes left, we are in bounding the ball with same formation. RJ beat's his defender, Almonacy throws the full court pass and a dunk. 2 points! Or, RJ beats his defender and knowing nobody is back, the defender grabs RJ since the defender is out of position. Do you call the foul? Yes. Is it a Flagrant in that case? No. Does RJ get two shots? Yes."

Was the intent to stop the clock or prevent the score? Those are different acts and not subject to the same rule.

[AppStateNews]

"Say there are 10 minutes left, we are in bounding the ball with same formation. RJ beat's his defender, Almonacy throws the full court pass and a dunk. 2 points! Or, RJ beats his defender and knowing nobody is back, the defender grabs RJ since the defender is out of position. Do you call the foul? Yes. Is it a Flagrant in that case? No. Does RJ get two shots? Yes."

Was the intent to stop the clock or prevent the score? Those are different acts and not subject to the same rule.

That is exactly the point. With minimal time left, who is to say it's to stop the clock and not just the defender out of position? Again, up to refs discretion. But, 99.9% of the time it will not be called with a moving offensive player.

[EastHallApp]

And yes, I believe you get hit with the intentional foul on a breakaway where you just grab the guy.

If the offensive player is already past the defender and has a clear lane (with ball), then yes. If the defender is still in the way but out of position and fouls the guy, then no.

The foul on RJ was actually called before the defender wrapped him up. RJ made the cut inside and defender bumped him of his path -- thats where the foul was called. Then the defender wrapped him up.

From a fan standpoint -- yes, it's a flagrant. From a former player, coach, and collegiate official standpoint, that will very rarely get called. 99.99% of the college officials will not call that since RJ was trying to "get away."

Given that I've never reffed a game and it sounds like you have, I'll defer to your expertise on how the rule is applied in practice.

As someone who simply watches the game and doesn't like the trend of gaming the refs, I'll maintain that it should be called a flagrant 1. It meets both the spirit and letter of the rule IMO.

[asu66]

Where is James Lewis Jr?

Wondering the same thing. I assume he re-aggravated the injury last night. He started against Tx St, but didn’t play much. We could really use his bulk against Mostafa.

Early in the second half our network p-b-p broadcaster commented that it could be a looong second half w/o JLewis. He went on to say that Lewis was not in uniform, not on the bench and hadn't been seen at the arena. I looked for him when the cameras went to our team during TOs but never could pick out anyone anywhere near the bench who had his height and build. I suffer from impaired vision so I could very well have missed him.

Hard for me to fathom him shaking off a badly dinged-up ankle and getting back in the lineup after just one day off. Would like to be wrong about that but would not want him to give it a go and sustain a more severe injury.

[app97]

Where is James Lewis Jr?

Wondering the same thing. I assume he re-aggravated the injury last night. He started against Tx St, but didn’t play much. We could really use his bulk against Mostafa.

Early in the second half our network p-b-p broadcaster commented that it could be a looong second half w/o JLewis. He went on to say that Lewis was not in uniform, not on the bench and hadn't been seen at the arena. I looked for him when the cameras went to our team during TOs but never could pick out anyone anywhere near the bench who had his height and build. I suffer from impaired vision so I could very well have missed him.

Hard for me to fathom him shaking off a badly dinged-up ankle and getting back in the lineup after just one day off. Would like to be wrong about that but would not want him to give it a go and sustain a more severe injury.

He was there...just didn’t play.