"Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

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"Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:41 pm




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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by SayYesToTheRock » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:19 pm

What is his point, exactly? That kids should be able to play for a college football team without going to college?


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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by EastHallApp » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:48 pm

I'd suggest reading the entire, original interview if you're interested. Pretty thoughtful critique of the system of pseudo-amateurism. But for one sample:

"It's not that they shouldn't be in school. Human beings don't belong in school with our schedules. No one in their right mind should have a football player's schedule, and go to school. It's not that some players shouldn't be in school; it's just that universities should help them more—instead of just finding ways to keep them eligible.

Any time any player puts into school will take away from the time they could put into football. They don't realize that they're getting screwed until it's too late. You have a bunch of people at the universities who are supposed to help you out, and they're more interested in helping you stay eligible. At some point, universities have to do more to prepare players for university life and help them succeed beyond football. There's so much money being made in this sport. It's a crime to not do everything you can to help the people who are making it for those who are spending it."



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by NoLongerLurking » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:08 pm

To me it seems like college football should be taken less seriously, not that the players should be taken more seriously.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by AtlAppMan » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:37 pm

I am tired of hearing this story line. Yes money is being made in college sports. But if players want to make it to the pros then they need to prove they are able to endure the process. This is not really different than many other professions because in most professions when you start out you don't get to reap the rewards until you have paid your dues. In days of old, you would be an apprentice and train under a skilled worker until one day you were able to claim to be a professional. Practically every profession works this way, somebody else benefits from the up and coming resource until their day comes. In professional careers, in the few years after college you get a low starting salary until you prove yourself. You bust your butt working overtime and everything else for first few years. Ask any doctor who had to bust butt as an intern and residency or lawyers the same question.

What is the difference? This is just part of that profession.
Last edited by AtlAppMan on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by NoLongerLurking » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:00 pm

AtlAppMan wrote:I am tired of hearing this story line. Yes money is being made in college sports. But if players want to make it to the pros then they need to prove they are able to endure the process. This is not really different than many other professions because in most professions when you start out you don't get to reap the rewards until you have paid your dues. In days of old, you would be an apprentice and train under a skilled worker until one day you were able to claim to be a professional. Practically every profession works this way. In everyone, somebody else benefits from the up and coming resource. In professional careers, in the few years after college you get a low starting salary until you prove yourself. You bust your butt working overtime and everything else for first few years. Ask any doctor or lawyer the same question.

What is the difference?
My GI Bill degree definitely took hard work. When I first started classes, I couldn't even be in a room with more than 20 people. I tried hard, I did the things the VA wanted me to, and in December I graduated. That was hard work, without even mentioning the sacrifices that led to my eligibility.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by EastHallApp » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:25 pm

AtlAppMan wrote:I am tired of hearing this story line. Yes money is being made in college sports. But if players want to make it to the pros then they need to prove they are able to endure the process. This is not really different than many other professions because in most professions when you start out you don't get to reap the rewards until you have paid your dues. In days of old, you would be an apprentice and train under a skilled worker until one day you were able to claim to be a professional. Practically every profession works this way, somebody else benefits from the up and coming resource until their day comes. In professional careers, in the few years after college you get a low starting salary until you prove yourself. You bust your butt working overtime and everything else for first few years. Ask any doctor who had to bust butt as an intern and residency or lawyers the same question.

What is the difference? This is just part of that profession.
Yet it's not a required part of the profession of professional baseball, or hockey, or soccer, or any other sport except basketball (the only other one that makes money at the college level).

Having said that, I'm not sure we're exactly responding to his point. He's saying colleges should be doing more to prepare athletes for their careers, rather than a) making them choose between a rigorous course of study and keeping up in their sport, and/or b) doing whatever they have to to keep guys eligible, even if they don't learn any real life skills in the process.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:54 am

It doesn't take a genius to realize that a good percentage of young people who enter college have no business being there. A great percentage of student-athletes have no business being in college. A great percentage of high school athletes struggle just to stay eligible with a C average. In most NC high schools a student takes 4 classes each semester- basically 2 A's and 2 F's keeps you eligible. A lot of football players take weightlifting (easy A). If they take a basic math class and another elective and barely pass the harder classes there is the eligibility. My wife has taught for years at one of the top performing high schools in the state, who also annually has a very successful football team. She has numerous stories about the many young men who barely remain eligible to just play high school ball. This has to be the case state and most certainly nation wide. Now project these same stud players who must "get into college". I would gather that the number who just slide in under minimum requirements is a rather large. Now take that same number of young men and put them in a program that requires numerous hours of practice, class loads and, heaven forbid, studying. Many are doomed to fail. The whole "remain eligible " thing is nothing new. If it weren't for advisors how many of these marginal college athletes would flame out almost immediately? My guess, a ton.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:09 am

I find it very interesting that most are picking up on a minor point that the guy made regarding that if Alabama raised its academic standards that their players wouldn't get into school and that it therefore wouldn't win so many national titles.

His main point is that today's student athletes schedules are so rigorous and time consuming that there is practically no time for school. He isn't pointing out who doesn't deserve to go to school or isn't suggesting that the athletes do not deserve to be there.

Most college students spend time in class and studying and may have a part time job. His point is that college athletics are too time consuming, full time and that the university athletic department puts the actual college degree as a secondary point. In reality the athletes are only kept academically eligible. They aren't being student athletes they are athletes who maintain eligibility.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by EastHallApp » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:19 am

HighlandsApp wrote:I find it very interesting that most are picking up on a minor point that the guy made regarding that if Alabama raised its academic standards that their players wouldn't get into school and that it therefore wouldn't win so many national titles.

His main point is that today's student athletes schedules are so rigorous and time consuming that there is practically no time for school. He isn't pointing out who doesn't deserve to go to school or isn't suggesting that the athletes do not deserve to be there.

Most college students spend time in class and studying and may have a part time job. His point is that college athletics are too time consuming, full time and that the university athletic department puts the actual college degree as a secondary point. In reality the athletes are only kept academically eligible. They aren't being student athletes they are athletes who maintain eligibility.
Exactly.

This is one of those articles that gets picked up or "aggregated" by secondary sites that run one of the more splashy quotes as a headline, with no context. Then fans react to that without ever actually reading what the kid has to say.

Agree or disagree, he seems like a pretty smart and thoughtful young man.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by SpeedkingATL » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:36 am

I thought he made a lot of sense. I expect playing any varsity sport, especially one as demanding as football is like having two full time jobs.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by moonshine » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:46 am

How do programs solve the problem?

Does it take more money to help with academic support staff and COA so athletes don't need a part time job? Extend the amount of years a student athlete is covered under their scholarship so instead of 5 years to play 4, make it 6 years to play 4?

If more money is required, then the NCAA and the roughly 250 D1 program (FBS&FCS) should reach out to the NFL. To my knowledge, they are the only professional league who do not have to pay for their "minor league" system. The NBA has the NBDL, MLB has a huge farm system from low single A to AAA and the NHL has a system.

Yet the NFL, who raked in $13.3B in 2016 and has a stated goal of reaching $25B by 2027 per Goodell (2010), should be able afford to shell out $500m to be split among all D1 program based on scholarships provided. The $500m is less than 4% of current NFL revenue and will be 2% of the projected $25B in 2027.

The MLB has roughly 120 farm teams (4 per major league team) that are worth between $3m and $25m a piece with the top 20 teams being worth $20m+. If you put the average worth at $6m per farm team, that costs the MLB $720m. The MLB brought in $10B in 2016.

If the answer is more money, then the NCAA and college programs across America need to reach out to the NFL to help supplement the very system the NFL benefits from but has never invested in. The extra $1.6m-$2.3m per Div1 team annually would do wonders in providing COA, more academic support staff and/or scholarship extensions to help alleviate the time constraints placed on student athletes.


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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by ericsaid » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:31 am

College athletics have been around for how long?



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by Yosef10 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:03 pm

moonshine wrote:How do programs solve the problem?

Does it take more money to help with academic support staff and COA so athletes don't need a part time job? Extend the amount of years a student athlete is covered under their scholarship so instead of 5 years to play 4, make it 6 years to play 4?

If more money is required, then the NCAA and the roughly 250 D1 program (FBS&FCS) should reach out to the NFL. To my knowledge, they are the only professional league who do not have to pay for their "minor league" system. The NBA has the NBDL, MLB has a huge farm system from low single A to AAA and the NHL has a system.

Yet the NFL, who raked in $13.3B in 2016 and has a stated goal of reaching $25B by 2027 per Goodell (2010), should be able afford to shell out $500m to be split among all D1 program based on scholarships provided. The $500m is less than 4% of current NFL revenue and will be 2% of the projected $25B in 2027.

The MLB has roughly 120 farm teams (4 per major league team) that are worth between $3m and $25m a piece with the top 20 teams being worth $20m+. If you put the average worth at $6m per farm team, that costs the MLB $720m. The MLB brought in $10B in 2016.

If the answer is more money, then the NCAA and college programs across America need to reach out to the NFL to help supplement the very system the NFL benefits from but has never invested in. The extra $1.6m-$2.3m per Div1 team annually would do wonders in providing COA, more academic support staff and/or scholarship extensions to help alleviate the time constraints placed on student athletes.
Im sure this won't be popular but the answer is pretty simple: don't send kids to an institution of higher learning whose sole priority is to play football.

Full disclosure, college football is my favorite sports and yes that would irreparably change the landscape of "college" athletics. But it's necessary.

If you're interested in the origins of the NCAA and how it operates today, I would recommend you reading "The System: The Glory and Scandal of Big-Time College Football" by Jeff Benedict.

For those of you who aren't big readers, watch the documentary on Netflix "Schooled: The Price of College Sports".

For all of you who believe the NCAA is some well-to-do institution, you are saaaadly mistaken. The creator of the NCAA himself, Mr. Walter Byers, is quoted in that book saying that the NCAA is a sham and the term "student-athlete" was born out of thin air by lawyers who were trying to beat workers comp claims by college players. Out of that was born the greatest lie ever told and believed by the sports community.

The NFL, and NBA for that matter, have been skating by on the cheap for decades thanks to their ole pal, the NCAA. Both need minor league systems where kids can enter straight out of HS, just like MLB. You don't need to go to college to be a professional athlete, and you shouldn't. Stop comparing becoming an accountant to becoming a professional athlete. But why would the NCAA stop this charade of "amateurism" when everyone but the actual people producing the product are getting filthy rich?

The thing that blows my mind more than anything - Walter Byers wrote a book himself in 95 where he compares the current NCAA system to indentured servitude, calls it blatant exploitation of the "student-athlete", and even went so far as to call the NCAA corrupt and a hypocrisy. This is the man who created the modern day NCAA! - Yet you still have these folks who think the NCAA is actually looking out for the kid. Gimme a break, people.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by AppfaninCAALand » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:26 pm

ericsaid wrote:College athletics have been around for how long?
1852 Harvard vs Yale rowing



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by JTApps1 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:32 pm

EastHallApp wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote:I find it very interesting that most are picking up on a minor point that the guy made regarding that if Alabama raised its academic standards that their players wouldn't get into school and that it therefore wouldn't win so many national titles.

His main point is that today's student athletes schedules are so rigorous and time consuming that there is practically no time for school. He isn't pointing out who doesn't deserve to go to school or isn't suggesting that the athletes do not deserve to be there.

Most college students spend time in class and studying and may have a part time job. His point is that college athletics are too time consuming, full time and that the university athletic department puts the actual college degree as a secondary point. In reality the athletes are only kept academically eligible. They aren't being student athletes they are athletes who maintain eligibility.
Exactly.

This is one of those articles that gets picked up or "aggregated" by secondary sites that run one of the more splashy quotes as a headline, with no context. Then fans react to that without ever actually reading what the kid has to say.

Agree or disagree, he seems like a pretty smart and thoughtful young man.
It is hard to believe how much time these players spend on class, studying, practice, lifting, and film study each day. He is right that college sports have become so competitive the players have very little down time even in the off season. Add in the large increase in travel time they face during the season and it adds up. It's not impossible, but it is VERY demanding.

The only ways to change this is to limit the amount of practice time even more than it already is, and to reduce the travel time by change up the conferences. Less practice time mean more mistakes on the field, and fixing the conferences will be nearly impossible to do and make all of the big boys happy.


When will "It's better than what we had" no longer be good enough for App State?

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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by EastHallApp » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:07 pm

JTApps1 wrote:
EastHallApp wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote:I find it very interesting that most are picking up on a minor point that the guy made regarding that if Alabama raised its academic standards that their players wouldn't get into school and that it therefore wouldn't win so many national titles.

His main point is that today's student athletes schedules are so rigorous and time consuming that there is practically no time for school. He isn't pointing out who doesn't deserve to go to school or isn't suggesting that the athletes do not deserve to be there.

Most college students spend time in class and studying and may have a part time job. His point is that college athletics are too time consuming, full time and that the university athletic department puts the actual college degree as a secondary point. In reality the athletes are only kept academically eligible. They aren't being student athletes they are athletes who maintain eligibility.
Exactly.

This is one of those articles that gets picked up or "aggregated" by secondary sites that run one of the more splashy quotes as a headline, with no context. Then fans react to that without ever actually reading what the kid has to say.

Agree or disagree, he seems like a pretty smart and thoughtful young man.
It is hard to believe how much time these players spend on class, studying, practice, lifting, and film study each day. He is right that college sports have become so competitive the players have very little down time even in the off season. Add in the large increase in travel time they face during the season and it adds up. It's not impossible, but it is VERY demanding.

The only ways to change this is to limit the amount of practice time even more than it already is, and to reduce the travel time by change up the conferences. Less practice time mean more mistakes on the field, and fixing the conferences will be nearly impossible to do and make all of the big boys happy.
I wonder if the biggest demands are really on-field practice time or all the other stuff they spend time on - S&C, film study, etc.



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Re: "Football and college do not go together." This PAC12 QB has a point

Unread post by JTApps1 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:18 am

EastHallApp wrote:
JTApps1 wrote:
EastHallApp wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote:I find it very interesting that most are picking up on a minor point that the guy made regarding that if Alabama raised its academic standards that their players wouldn't get into school and that it therefore wouldn't win so many national titles.

His main point is that today's student athletes schedules are so rigorous and time consuming that there is practically no time for school. He isn't pointing out who doesn't deserve to go to school or isn't suggesting that the athletes do not deserve to be there.

Most college students spend time in class and studying and may have a part time job. His point is that college athletics are too time consuming, full time and that the university athletic department puts the actual college degree as a secondary point. In reality the athletes are only kept academically eligible. They aren't being student athletes they are athletes who maintain eligibility.
Exactly.

This is one of those articles that gets picked up or "aggregated" by secondary sites that run one of the more splashy quotes as a headline, with no context. Then fans react to that without ever actually reading what the kid has to say.

Agree or disagree, he seems like a pretty smart and thoughtful young man.
It is hard to believe how much time these players spend on class, studying, practice, lifting, and film study each day. He is right that college sports have become so competitive the players have very little down time even in the off season. Add in the large increase in travel time they face during the season and it adds up. It's not impossible, but it is VERY demanding.

The only ways to change this is to limit the amount of practice time even more than it already is, and to reduce the travel time by change up the conferences. Less practice time mean more mistakes on the field, and fixing the conferences will be nearly impossible to do and make all of the big boys happy.
I wonder if the biggest demands are really on-field practice time or all the other stuff they spend time on - S&C, film study, etc.
Collectively those are probably more time consuming, but it would be very hard to track if limits were placed on those areas.


When will "It's better than what we had" no longer be good enough for App State?

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