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Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Yosef10
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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Yosef10 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:37 pm

Gonzo wrote:
appst89 wrote:
Yosef10 wrote: And I don't believe any of the gentleman on Mt. Rushmore engaged in a war of treason against their own country.
George Washington? Thomas Jefferson?
Yes. Literally every founding father was engaged in that exact brand of treason.

I don't think CSA statues are an appropriate public land use. I mean, black people are paying taxes for the upkeep of those monuments. But this Yankee moral-high grounding is historically tone deaf.
What? Treason was fighting for the confederacy. Guess I missed Jefferson and Washington donning confederate uniforms. But yes, yankee moral high ground, good one.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by 1ASU78 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:30 am

Appftw wrote:
appst89 wrote:
Yosef10 wrote: And I don't believe any of the gentleman on Mt. Rushmore engaged in a war of treason against their own country.
George Washington? Thomas Jefferson?

Britain, besides not being our current country, was also not a democracy. That is a key point. Rebel leaders were attempting to overthrow a democratically elected gov't. If someone wanted to lead an armed uprising against Trump (in the same way that Southerners did against Lincoln), would they not be in the wrong? I don't think they'd be deserving of a place of honor in every public square for something so deeply unamerican.

I didn't realize the southern states were trying to overthrow the US government. I thought they were trying to gain independence. But we all twist history to suit us.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Gonzo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:23 am

Yosef10 wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
appst89 wrote:
Yosef10 wrote: And I don't believe any of the gentleman on Mt. Rushmore engaged in a war of treason against their own country.
George Washington? Thomas Jefferson?
Yes. Literally every founding father was engaged in that exact brand of treason.

I don't think CSA statues are an appropriate public land use. I mean, black people are paying taxes for the upkeep of those monuments. But this Yankee moral-high grounding is historically tone deaf.
What? Treason was fighting for the confederacy. Guess I missed Jefferson and Washington donning confederate uniforms. But yes, yankee moral high ground, good one.
The American REVOLUTION was a rebellion against England. The American colonies were English colonies. It was treason.

Also, re: monarchy vs democracy, the Magna Carta was signed in 1251. Colonials were angry because they were being taxed without being represented in Parliament. Parliament is a democratically elected legislator. King George was still King by line of succession, but the American Revolution was still a rebellion against a largely democratically elected government.

Slavery in England had ended at the time the American Colonies seceded. The American Revolution was a treasonous attempt to start a new country and continue slavery against a former sovereign that did not wish to continue the practice. And Washington and Lee were both from Virginia.

The biggest distinction between the plight of the Colonial Rebels and the CSA is that the former conscripted a European ally and held out long enough for the enemy home front to abandon the fight, despite being numerically and technologically superior. The Confederate emissary sent to Great Britain to ask for help fighting for independence was unsuccessful largely BECAUSE of Britains anti-slavery stance and the South's goal of preserving the institution.

It's really ironic and fascinating.
Last edited by Gonzo on Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by ukappfan » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:24 am

Hey whoever wins the war can write whatever history they want.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Rekdiver » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:00 am

The only truth is the South's economic system was built and maintained on the backs of slaves. To maintain it we had to secede. We lost. Slaves were freed. White surpremacy was threatened. We did everything we could to keep the black man "in his place". The misplaced adoration of our CSA leaders is an affront to our country. Did they fight bravely and believe in their cause? Sure, my ancestors included. No one disputes that. But we were wrong and to honor something that could have destroyed the union and carried slavery as long as arparteid existed in Rhodesia or South Africa... well it's time to stop. There ar no statues in Germany Or Japan honoring the bravery of their soldiers. Move the statues to a museum. Remember sure but honor no.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by App91 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:00 am

Yosef10 wrote:
appst89 wrote:
Yosef10 wrote: And I don't believe any of the gentleman on Mt. Rushmore engaged in a war of treason against their own country.
George Washington? Thomas Jefferson?
Sorry 89, I guess I missed when Jefferson and Washington fought for the confederacy. Treason wasn't owning a slave in the 1700s. It's engaging the attempt to overthrow an elected government. Again, it's not as complicated as you all are trying to make it.
Once again, loose facts here. Typical! It was not an overthrow of the government, It was a secession and forming another country. The did o have interest in staying in said country.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Appftw » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:29 am

1ASU78 wrote:
Appftw wrote:
appst89 wrote:
Yosef10 wrote: And I don't believe any of the gentleman on Mt. Rushmore engaged in a war of treason against their own country.
George Washington? Thomas Jefferson?

Britain, besides not being our current country, was also not a democracy. That is a key point. Rebel leaders were attempting to overthrow a democratically elected gov't. If someone wanted to lead an armed uprising against Trump (in the same way that Southerners did against Lincoln), would they not be in the wrong? I don't think they'd be deserving of a place of honor in every public square for something so deeply unamerican.

I didn't realize the southern states were trying to overthrow the US government. I thought they were trying to gain independence. But we all twist history to suit us.
It may not have been an attempt to "overthrow" in the traditional sense, but if the South had been allowed to secede the Constitution would have become optional, which IMO is essentially the same as overthrowing our democracy.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:36 am

Rekdiver wrote:The only truth is the South's economic system was built and maintained on the backs of slaves. To maintain it we had to secede. We lost. Slaves were freed. White surpremacy was threatened. We did everything we could to keep the black man "in his place". The misplaced adoration of our CSA leaders is an affront to our country. Did they fight bravely and believe in their cause? Sure, my ancestors included. No one disputes that. But we were wrong and to honor something that could have destroyed the union and carried slavery as long as arparteid existed in Rhodesia or South Africa... well it's time to stop. There ar no statues in Germany Or Japan honoring the bravery of their soldiers. Move the statues to a museum. Remember sure but honor no.
Well said

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by 97grad » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:04 am

The biggest difference between the colonial rebels and the confederates is that the latter lost. Statues, memorials and the like would not be at issue if we were actually living in the CSA. But we're (thankfully) not, so they have no place in the USA. The "history" argument is bunk. The vast majority of what you read about in history books or see in museums is not commemorated in half the podunk towns in the south.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:46 am

Majority of these statues do not even have any artistic value. They are mass produced pieces commercializations of racism that were installed to remind a certain group people "where their place in the community is".

https://www.facebook.com/georgehtakei/v ... 027536881/

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by AppinVA » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:53 am

HighlandsApp wrote:Majority of these statues do not even have any artistic value. They are mass produced pieces commercializations of racism that were installed to remind a certain group people "where their place in the community is".

https://www.facebook.com/georgehtakei/v ... 027536881/
You've obviously never been on Monument Avenue in Richmond. It's one of the prettiest streets in America.
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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by HighlandsApp » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:56 am

AppinVA wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote:Majority of these statues do not even have any artistic value. They are mass produced pieces commercializations of racism that were installed to remind a certain group people "where their place in the community is".

https://www.facebook.com/georgehtakei/v ... 027536881/
You've obviously never been on Monument Avenue in Richmond. It's one of the prettiest streets in America.
I have not. This is in regards to the majority of the 1,950 confederate statues adorning town squares across the country. Even in towns and states that did not exist during the civil war.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Yosef84 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:47 am

HighlandsApp wrote:
AppinVA wrote:
HighlandsApp wrote:Majority of these statues do not even have any artistic value. They are mass produced pieces commercializations of racism that were installed to remind a certain group people "where their place in the community is".

https://www.facebook.com/georgehtakei/v ... 027536881/
You've obviously never been on Monument Avenue in Richmond. It's one of the prettiest streets in America.
I have not. This is in regards to the majority of the 1,950 confederate statues adorning town squares across the country. Even in towns and states that did not exist during the civil war.
That is exactly right. Most of these "memorials" were actually erected in the 60's as a reaction to the Civil Rights movement. They do not actually have a particularly long history....certainly not back to the war itself. The same is true of the use of the Stars and Bars in state flags. The Georgia State flag never featured the Stars and Bars until 1956, so when people objected to that changing on "historical" basis it didn't really ring true.

I have no problem with a memorial to fallen soldiers. Most of those soldiers had no stake in the slavery issue. They were simply fighting for the state in which they lived. At that time, the state was more meaningful to the average person than the federal government. However, any attempt to sanitize or glorify the Confederacy as a cause is simply inappropriate on public property. Robert E. Lee as a person was probably more honorable than Ulysses S. Grant, but he fought for an unworthy cause.

The ones responsible for ruining the "history" associated with the Stars and Bars or other confederate symbols are the hate groups who have adopted them. 100+ years of use by the KKK simply outweighs the brief time that flag served as a battle flag for its original purpose.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by bcoach » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:19 pm

This whole situation has been totally mismanaged from the start, up until now. I have no hopes that will change. After making strides in closing the racial divide tensions have been growing over the last few years. The media and the internet are a huge part of the problem but much of the blame can also be rightly put on elected officials. No PC decision and no law is going to improve the situation. The answer is to get off the internet, put down the newspaper ( except the sports section(: ) and turn off the television. Then just have an honest conversation person to person. See there was only one real winner in this whole deal and that was the hate groups. They got the publicity the so desperately crave. See most of their rallies go unnoticed and they just go away with their tail between their legs. With all the publicity they got out of this just wait till their next one.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by AppfaninCAALand » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:34 pm

Most of the local politicians going after statues are trying to distract from their failing public schools and pothole filled roads, the national politicians are looking for wedge-issues to help reelection, the activist groups (on both sides) are looking for fund-raising opporunities, and the Democrat Party is trying to atone for or cover up (depending on your political prespective) their racist history.

As a resident of Richmond, I know for a fact the millions needed to remove Monument Ave statues and rename every street named for a Confederate will not patch up all the numerous leaking roofs the Richmond Public Schools can't afford to fix.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Appftw » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:44 pm

AppfaninCAALand wrote: and the Democrat Party is trying to atone for or cover up (depending on your political prespective) their racist history.
You do know that the Democrats changed from being the party of racists because the ENTIRE SOUTH switched to the Republican party because they couldn't stand the fact that black people were gaining civil rights... right? I'd love to hear your explanation for why the South switched parties in the 60s/70s if you don't buy it.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by eggers76 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:32 pm

From my point of view bcoach is correct. We have to get away from Internet political posting (newspapers/other media, social media, etc) and get together in face to face dialogue with people we don't always agree with and discuss issues and build relationships to close our divides. The former is too easy and does not work. The latter is much harder but has a much better chance to find workable solutions for our communities.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by AppfaninCAALand » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:56 pm

Appftw wrote:
AppfaninCAALand wrote: and the Democrat Party is trying to atone for or cover up (depending on your political prespective) their racist history.
You do know that the Democrats changed from being the party of racists because the ENTIRE SOUTH switched to the Republican party because they couldn't stand the fact that black people were gaining civil rights... right? I'd love to hear your explanation for why the South switched parties in the 60s/70s if you don't buy it.
You do know the "Big Switch" of the 60s/70s is a myth not backed up by the historical record... right?

African Americans started voted Democrat in large numbers in the 30s while Southern whites didn't start voting Republican in large numbers until the 80s and 90s - Nixon's 49 state landslide not withstanding. Contrary to popular mythology, most Southern Democrats did not switch parties, it was subsequent generations that changed affiliations.

The Big Switch is primarily projection and excuse making fueled by guilt and political posturing. The notion that far leftists Progressive Democrats like Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger, or William Fulbright would be Republicans if they lived today simply because they were also vehement racists is laughable.

Even if the "Big Switch" was accurate, that does not preclude the Democrats wanting to atone for or recitify their party's past crimes, hence my statement about "atone or cover up depending on your political perspective".

I was implying that those sympathic to the Dems may want to rectify their past while Repub-leaning folks may see it as a cover up. Either way, I suspect their racist history is a factor in this debate, but as a political independent I was trying to be value neutral.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by NoLongerLurking » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:59 pm

I'm glad you all are going to sort this out for us that don't give a rat's ass about any of it.

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Re: Duke Removes Robert E. Lee Statue

Unread post by Appftw » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:43 pm

AppfaninCAALand wrote:
Appftw wrote:
AppfaninCAALand wrote: and the Democrat Party is trying to atone for or cover up (depending on your political prespective) their racist history.
You do know that the Democrats changed from being the party of racists because the ENTIRE SOUTH switched to the Republican party because they couldn't stand the fact that black people were gaining civil rights... right? I'd love to hear your explanation for why the South switched parties in the 60s/70s if you don't buy it.
You do know the "Big Switch" of the 60s/70s is a myth not backed up by the historical record... right?

African Americans started voted Democrat in large numbers in the 30s while Southern whites didn't start voting Republican in large numbers until the 80s and 90s - Nixon's 49 state landslide not withstanding. Contrary to popular mythology, most Southern Democrats did not switch parties, it was subsequent generations that changed affiliations.

The Big Switch is primarily projection and excuse making fueled by guilt and political posturing. The notion that far leftists Progressive Democrats like Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger, or William Fulbright would be Republicans if they lived today simply because they were also vehement racists is laughable.

Even if the "Big Switch" was accurate, that does not preclude the Democrats wanting to atone for or recitify their party's past crimes, hence my statement about "atone or cover up depending on your political perspective".

I was implying that those sympathic to the Dems may want to rectify their past while Repub-leaning folks may see it as a cover up. Either way, I suspect their racist history is a factor in this debate, but as a political independent I was trying to be value neutral.
Be honest, did you learn this from Dinesh D'Souza's books/documentaries? Your "big switch" terminology is straight from his stuff. Keep in mind that he is not a historian and also a convicted felon. I'm not denying that the Democrats used to be the party of the KKK but to say that the parties haven't switched ideologies is just denying reality.

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