Different angle on the NCHSAA thread

[AppfaninCAALand]

Apparently, that other NCHSAA was locked or moved to the political folder I don't know how to access while I was writing this. I hope the mods don't mind me opening a new thread because I worked too long on this, I wanted to share it. I wanted to talk about a different angle not discussed in that other thread, one that I don't see as political. But, feel free to move it if does go into a political direction - I could see going to a wider discussion on school choice/vouchers/charter schools, though that is not my intention.

After reading thru all that morass in the other thread, I am still somewhat confused and curious about what this whole debate is about? Is the State DOE taking over control of the NCHSAA and setting regulation? I'd say in general that isn't that big a deal - with one big exception, which should kill the whole proposal, in my mind. I will use my home state of Virginia for comparison.

My understanding is Virginia regulates the Virginia High School League (VHSL) as a matter of state law, it was even created by the state legislature. It is, I believe generally effective and run, as an arm of the Va DOE, except that it was often subject to the whims of grandstanding local House members looking to make a name for themselves in the hometowns.

For years, VHSL barred non-public school from membership by state statute, and at one point even prohibited VHSL from playing non-VHSL. This thankfully changed due to the legal victory by Liberty Christian Academy, whereby Liberty was allowed to join the VHSL. LCA's arguement was that they were far too big to play against other Lynchburg/Roanoke private schools and too far from similar sized private schools in NoVa, RVA, or Hampton Roads, but there were similar sized schools locally in the VHSL and it was inappropriate to lock out the LCA famlies from a taxpayer supported organization when they too were of course tax payers. This brought Virginia more in line with the rules in NC, SC, and GA regarding private school athletics with limited integration and allowed competition, but still far behind the total integration of athletic governence found in about 80% of US states.

While other schools such as Alexandria Bishop Ireton HS, supported LCA in this endeavor, only LCA has made this jump to the VHSL, though I suspect at least one Richmond private school, Collegiate, is flirting the same move. Their '23 football schedule is about 50/50 VHSL to VISAA, with local public schools even replacing longtime traditional rivals like Richmond Trinity Episcopal.

Overall however, the loosening of the wall between public and private schools have been a good thing, particularly with regards to scheduling in less populated areas or in sports with lower participation rates. For example, smaller rural public schools have been able to join with smaller private schools in playing 8-man football rather than being forced to drop the sport all together.

Which all leads me to my main issue with the NC DOE or which ever state agency is tasked with taking over governance of the NCHSAA - namely, the state does not govern all of the NCHSAA members. Im not sure of the exact relationship between NC and the various charter schools, but if it is typical to elsewhere, the state doesnt have much control, to say nothing of those NCHSAA members run by the Catholic Dioceses of Charlotte and Raleigh. Most of the 1A level now appears to me to be either charter schools or private schools, which are not governed by the state. Most states completely blend public and private schools with regards to athletic competetion and this benefits the student athletes both competitively and in terms of travel.

I suspect the drive for state control of the NCHSAA is driven as much by small town legislators upset their local 1A high school is being beaten out for state championships by the urban charter and Catholic schools, if not more so, than any of the issues discussed in the other thread. And that is too bad, as the growth of those schools in the NCHSAA has led to improved competetion and overall participation.

To sum up, NC in recent years has been moving in the right direction on this issue, but a state takeover to reverse that positive trend. While I see nothing wrong inherantly about the state taking over the NCHSAA it would be a mistake because too many NCHSAA members are not governed by the NC DOE.

[WVAPPeer]

All excellent points - by the way my original thread was nuked - I was, like you, in the process of posting similar questions when he nuked it ---
Some other questions - What about NIL? What about rules and regulations? What if they change recruiting policies? Who will run the playoffs in all sports? Who will decide eligibility? What if they pass a ruling like my home state of WV did when they ruled that every athlete could transfer one time without penalty? They now realize it was a mistake because the larger, better programs raided the small schools
So many questions --- I just don't see how legislators can run an organization which for decades has been run by coaches/athletic directors/principals?

[WVAPPeer]

From High School OT
https://www.highschoolot.com/story/legi ... /21069867/

It's not unusual for state legislatures to become involved in high school sports from time to time in states across the country. In fact, when Senate Bill 452 was passed last week, it was not the first time the legislature had gotten involved in high school sports in North Carolina.

The prolonged legislative interest in North Carolina, which started in 2019 and culminated in SB 452 stripping much of the authority to govern high school sports away from the N.C. High School Athletic Association, is not the norm.

Karissa Niehoff, the chief executive officer of the National Federation of State High School Associations, said she has been following the legislative involvement in North Carolina since a version House Bill 91 that would have dissolved the NCHSAA was proposed in July 2021.

"The legislatures around the country have, on occasion, gotten involved in the business of state associations, generally because there's been a ruling around a particular bylaw or regulation that didn't feel right for someone," Niehoff said. "After discussions and a kind of mutual learning on both sides, the issue can go away and die down. What we've seen happen in North Carolina is quite extreme. For a legislature to enact legislation that essentially overrides or removes power from the state association to govern the business of the association, that's very extreme, and we have rarely seen something go that far."

READ: Commissioner tells schools new legislation will be 'devastating,' vows to 'stay in the storm'
Like the NCHSAA, the NFHS is a non-profit entity. It is a federation, made up of 51 state associations, including the NCHSAA. The NFHS oversees high school sports at a national level, which includes setting standard rules for competition, distributing rule books, coaches education, and many other tasks.

Niehoff was a state association director in Connecticut before she took charge at the NFHS, so she understands the perspective of NCHSAA Commissioner Que Tucker, who told schools at a regional meeting on Tuesday that the new legislation would be "devastating" to the membership.

In her view, SB 452 will be "at the very least, destructive," Niehoff told HighSchoolOT.

"I do think it could be devastating if people come in to try to govern the business of high school athletics. The most tricky issues that are mentioned in the bill — transfer rules, eligibility rules, hardship interpretation, gender issues. Relegating just running events to the state office, or issuing infraction decisions without a monetary attachment, that would be very disruptive," Niehoff said.

[AppfaninCAALand]

Issues you raise, particularly recruiting and transfers, are a direct result of the rapid expansion of charter and private schools in the NCHSAA over the last 20 years. Those are easily addressed in-house if the state would get out of the way. If Florida, Ohio, or California can have total integration of public and private schools on the athletic field with no controversy, I see no reason NC or VA can't do the same.

This move is not about some punishment for a fight or that other thing that got the other thread locked. Its about rural schools down east being tired of loosing to Bishop McGuinness or Winston-Salem Prep every year.

[Rekdiver]

The Catholic and Charter schools play within the framework and rules set by the association so I don’t see the issue. There is a huge difference between parochial participating schools an those privates in the NCHSIAA.

[T-Dog]

Is the State DOE taking over control of the NCHSAA and setting regulation?

Yes. That's the whole purpose of this new bill. It takes away eligibility and enforcement power from the NCHSAA. It also forbids them from having corporate partners or giving out scholarships. This was the goal of a small group of legislators for the last 4 years that they couldn't get done in 2021.

I suspect the drive for state control of the NCHSAA is driven as much by small town legislators upset their local 1A high school is being beaten out for state championships by the urban charter and Catholic schools, if not more so, than any of the issues discussed in the other thread. And that is too bad, as the growth of those schools in the NCHSAA has led to improved competetion and overall participation.

Actually, it's the opposite. The Republican supermajority loves charter schools and extols them as "school choice." They just got a huge increase in scholarship money in the new budget. There has been an undercurrent of public 1A schools who are upset because these charter schools can stay 1A despite recruiting from an area with a 3A/4A population base. The NCHSAA has stayed away from putting charter schools in a different classification, saying it's a political hot button issue that would get the Republican leadership mad.

The issue that led to the other thread being locked was addressed, for better or worse depending on your political lean, in a bill earlier in the year that was made into law over the governor's veto. It's funny that thread got derailed and eventually locked because of something that had zero to do with the bill, but rather people assuming things.

Here's how the current bill stands. It passed the NC General Assembly on Sept. 22. The governor has 10 days to sign, veto or let become law without his signature. If he vetoes, then the NCGA can make it into law with a 60% vote in both chambers. The Republicans have 60% in both chambers by one vote each. There were like 3 Democrats in the House that voted in favor. But with all the pushback from the athletic directors, NFHS and Raleigh sports tourism bureau, it's not a slam dunk a veto would be overridden.

That's about as politically neutral as I can explain it.

[AppfaninCAALand]

T-Dog, even prior to reading your explanation, the make up of who was supporting this move did have me questioning my own theory. It was the side supporting charter schools and vouchers that supported LCA's suit here in Virginia after all, as well as a related measure to allow homeschooled kids in the VHSL around the same time.

But in running through all the reasons in my head as to why bother with this, I keep coming back to my first thought as the most logical. If its not that other thing, as it clearly wasn't from the OP on that other thread despite where people took it, than its got to have something to do with transfer rules, etc, and that screams targeting the charters and privates? Nothing else makes sense, but then why does it break politically the way it did? Its all very odd to me. As an outsider in VA, with somewhat similar issues of its own, and as a former player and coach in both the NCHSAA and NCISAA, I find it fascinatingly bizarre.

All politics is local as they say, and most of it is petty. It just seems like a few reps taking out personal grudges and the rest following along. My guess is if someone on the other side had supported it first, that side would have all fallen in line in support, while the side supporting it now would have all been opposed, as the whole issue feels rather a-political and pointless overall - mindless partisan squabbling for "sport" of it and nothing more.

The Catholic and Charter schools play within the framework and rules set by the association so I don’t see the issue. There is a huge difference between parochial participating schools an those privates in the NCHSIAA.

I dont see an issue as is either. But then again, I wouldn't have a problem with the total merger of the NCHSAA and NCISAA or the VHSL and VISAA either. And don't have a problem with recruiting, kids transferring, or scholarships for that matter. It is duty of every parent to find the school best for their kid. That shouldn't change just because that kid has D1/pro athletic potential but is zoned to a school with weak athletics. Everyone wins when competetion and access is expanded.

But if the state takes over, they can set rules that benefit the state-controlled members to the determent of those members outside their control, and thats the issue as I see it.

[WVAPPeer]

Charlotte Catholic has been winning nchsaa championships for years

[appstatealum]

Voucher requirements just expanded in NC and it will allow for more families to afford to send their kids to private schools. I'm active with a new private school (we opened this year) and assisting with athletics. We have been able to join private/charter school specific league that govern themselves mirroring NCHSAA as a guide but not having to deal with the same level.of politics that comes with that size. It's been a little more "grassroots" feel on some things, but overall much more collaborative than the time I spent in the NCHSAA world officiating years ago.

[Rekdiver]

Charlotte Catholic has been winning nchsaa championships for years

Joined the NCHSAA in the 70’s and for 30 years didn’t win didly. The longtime coach there Jim Oddo, former NCSU ball player was my coach at East Mecklenburg 1968-1970. I’m very familiar with CCHS.

[WVAPPeer]

Charlotte Catholic has been winning nchsaa championships for years

Joined the NCHSAA in the 70’s and for 30 years didn’t win didly. The longtime coach there Jim Oddo, former NCSU ball player was my coach at East Mecklenburg 1968-1970. I’m very familiar with CCHS.

I believe it was 2005 when I saw them win the State AAA Championship

[Rekdiver]

Here is a good read from a good HS sports writer:

Early Friday morning, North Carolina lawmakers added language to a bill that was about insurance, and fundamentally changed the way high school athletics are run in this state. But here’s the thing: The people that the lawmakers are saying they’re trying to protect — the school administrators, the coaches, the student-athletes — didn’t want this. Like, really didn’t. So why did legislators vote to pass a bill that effectively takes authority away from the N.C. High School Athletic Association and gives it to elected officials? It’s about politics, and it’s about power. North Carolina General Assembly There are more than 400 schools in the NCHSAA, and on social media, hundreds were expressing support for the association Friday with the hashtag #IStandWithTheNCHSAA. Ditto for statewide organizations like the N.C. Coaches Association and sports specific groups representing basketball and football coaches, as well as one representing the state’s athletic directors. They are all currently part of the governance process, and might not be soon. Currently, schools elect an NCHSAA Board of Directors and the association staff reports to the board. Virtually no heavy lifting can done without board approval, and the board is made of principals, superintendents and athletic directors. That’s school people policing school people. But things are about to change. The state’s board of education currently designates a non-profit to administer and enforce high school athletic rules — that’s the NCHSAA. Going forward, under the new legislation, the high school league could enter into an agreement with the superintendent of public instruction with additional reporting requirements, audits and oversight. But if an agreement is not reached with an administrative organization, the superintendent would take charge of high school athletics. The N.C. Department of Public Instruction’s superintendent is Republican Catherine Truitt. It’s unlikely Truitt’s office is prepared to handle the work of the NCHSAA’s full-time staff. It’s also unlikely we would be here if Sen. Tom McInnis had not been angered with a decision by the NCHSAA to prohibit Anson County High School from making the football playoffs in 2019. In August of that year, Anson County had six players ejected for fighting during a game with Richmond Senior. NCHSAA rules stated that any team with three of more players ejected from a game would be banned from the postseason. Anson County coach Ralph Jackson told The Observer that he didn’t tell his players about the ruling until after the regular season. The Bearcats won their first conference title in a decade. Jackson called the incident a life lesson about overcoming adversity. McInnis, who then represented Anson County, felt the NCHSAA ban was unfair. He told a Raleigh-based website, High School OT, that he contacted the NCHSAA after the decision was made. 4:43 PM “I think it was subjective,” McInnis told the website at the time. “I think they did it just because they could. Anson County is a small, rural school district ... those kids don’t have a voice, but their senator has a voice, and this senator is not going to just stand idly by.” McInnis has recruited other senators, including Vickie Sawyer, who represents Iredell and Mecklenburg counties, and Todd Johnson, who represents Cabarrus and Union. In the past few years, lawmakers have gone after the NCHSAA over its use, or lack of use, of its endowment, its transparency and its judgment. That led to the NCHSAA entering into a “memorandum of understanding” with the State Board of Education, made up of the lieutenant governor, treasurer, and 11 members appointed by Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper. That memorandum stripped considerable power away from the NCHSAA, allowing the State Board to set rules for eligibility and game play and the ability to override most changes the NCHSAA might make with a simple majority vote. But the four-year agreement, which just started last year, wasn’t enough.

Read more at: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sport ... rylink=cpy

[WVAPPeer]

CAA - Do you know if VHSL had revised divisions? - I try to follow the rankings as Graham (Bluefield VA) has had a really good team the last several years - Also follow Hampton HS (wife graduated from there before they had the string of great seasons) But she knew Mike Smith because he was coaching even in the mid-late 60s. Also she grew up in Phoebus long before there was a Phoebus HS but we follow them as well. I just can't find ranking this year like I have in the past ---

[hapapp]

CAA - Do you know if VHSL had revised divisions? - I try to follow the rankings as Graham (Bluefield VA) has had a really good team the last several years - Also follow Hampton HS (wife graduated from there before they had the string of great seasons) But she knew Mike Smith because he was coaching even in the mid-late 60s. Also she grew up in Phoebus long before there was a Phoebus HS but we follow them as well. I just can't find ranking this year like I have in the past ---

Not sure how recent you are with respect to VHSL divisions. There are six divisions up from the three for most of VHSL history.

Graham is currently 6-1.

https://scorebooklive.com/virginia/foot ... /standings

[WVAPPeer]

Thanks that what I thought - but when I looked at rankings they seemed to bunch several together

[hapapp]

Yep… Max Preps is doing a combined ranking… Haven’t seen anything from VHSL by division and region.

[hapapp]

Maybe this helps a bit.

https://www.maxpreps.com/va/football/23 ... 89ed15ddc5

[WVAPPeer]

Thank you - that's exactly what I saw - the combined rankings - because if I remember correctly they had Phoebus like #4 and Maury #1 and Highland Springs #5 and I knew Phoebus wasn't in the same class as those two ---
Thanks again

[App_in_Maiden]

Off topic, but at a HS game currently. The opposing teams band plays during the middle of a play. How is that legal?

[WVAPPeer]

Update from today - Gov Cooper refused to sign the bill which means it will become law - basically it was going to happen anyway - the republicans have super majority in both houses and would have over overridden his veto as they have done in every case -
https://www.highschoolot.com/story/new- ... /21078287/