Will this be a growing problem with many bowl games?

[bcoach]

"I'm old school here so if this is archaic it's only because it is. Those two choosing to not play in their school's team's bowl game is a slap in the face to their team mates, coaches, boosters, and university. It wreaks of selfish pride. If I were their coach and had the power to do it I'd immediately remove their scholarship and ban them from all team functions and the use of any facilities. If they're that worried about the coin then take out an insurance policy and go to the local gym, hire a personal trainer, and get ready for the league. "


So. let me understand - a kid gives everything he has to you, the coach, the university and his team for 3-4 years and now in a meaningless game he decides not to play - even though he has played hurt many times - you are essentially going to kick him off the team?
p.s. - I am most likely more Old-school than you

Well yes. He was paid to play all the games not just the ones he chooses to play.

He was paid?

Yes

[EastHallApp]

"I'm old school here so if this is archaic it's only because it is. Those two choosing to not play in their school's team's bowl game is a slap in the face to their team mates, coaches, boosters, and university. It wreaks of selfish pride. If I were their coach and had the power to do it I'd immediately remove their scholarship and ban them from all team functions and the use of any facilities. If they're that worried about the coin then take out an insurance policy and go to the local gym, hire a personal trainer, and get ready for the league. "


So. let me understand - a kid gives everything he has to you, the coach, the university and his team for 3-4 years and now in a meaningless game he decides not to play - even though he has played hurt many times - you are essentially going to kick him off the team?
p.s. - I am most likely more Old-school than you

Well yes. He was paid to play all the games not just the ones he chooses to play.

He was paid?

Yes

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

[WVAPPeer]

And which guy are we talking about?

[BUTCH1991]

I personally don't believe that schools with openings should be allowed to contact coaches that still have a team that's playing. Kind of like the NFL rule. The lack of commitment between coaches and their schools/players and now players to their teammates/schools is very disappointing. So much for the brotherhood/camaraderie of teams.

[NewApp]

"I'm old school here so if this is archaic it's only because it is. Those two choosing to not play in their school's team's bowl game is a slap in the face to their team mates, coaches, boosters, and university. It wreaks of selfish pride. If I were their coach and had the power to do it I'd immediately remove their scholarship and ban them from all team functions and the use of any facilities. If they're that worried about the coin then take out an insurance policy and go to the local gym, hire a personal trainer, and get ready for the league. "


So. let me understand - a kid gives everything he has to you, the coach, the university and his team for 3-4 years and now in a meaningless game he decides not to play - even though he has played hurt many times - you are essentially going to kick him off the team?
p.s. - I am most likely more Old-school than you

Well yes. He was paid to play all the games not just the ones he chooses to play.

He was paid?

Yes

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

Was he getting an athletic scholarship and/or Actual Cost of Attendance payment? If so, in my opinion, he was getting paid.

[bcoach]

"I'm old school here so if this is archaic it's only because it is. Those two choosing to not play in their school's team's bowl game is a slap in the face to their team mates, coaches, boosters, and university. It wreaks of selfish pride. If I were their coach and had the power to do it I'd immediately remove their scholarship and ban them from all team functions and the use of any facilities. If they're that worried about the coin then take out an insurance policy and go to the local gym, hire a personal trainer, and get ready for the league. "


So. let me understand - a kid gives everything he has to you, the coach, the university and his team for 3-4 years and now in a meaningless game he decides not to play - even though he has played hurt many times - you are essentially going to kick him off the team?
p.s. - I am most likely more Old-school than you

Well yes. He was paid to play all the games not just the ones he chooses to play.

He was paid?

Yes

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

Not breaking news to anyone who has remotely heard of NCAA div 1 football.

[EastHallApp]

Well yes. He was paid to play all the games not just the ones he chooses to play.

He was paid?

Yes

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

Not breaking news to anyone who has remotely heard of NCAA div 1 football.

Ok, I'm going to drop the sarcasm because I can't tell if you're referring to impermissible benefits or just receiving a scholarship.

[Saint3333]

Guess he figured running against UNC-CH would prove little.

[bcoach]

He was paid?

Yes

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

Not breaking news to anyone who has remotely heard of NCAA div 1 football.

Ok, I'm going to drop the sarcasm because I can't tell if you're referring to impermissible benefits or just receiving a scholarship.

I am referring to the scholarship which is payment for him playing football. That would be playing football when the coach wanted him to play not when he felt like playing.

[EastHallApp]

Yes

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

Not breaking news to anyone who has remotely heard of NCAA div 1 football.

Ok, I'm going to drop the sarcasm because I can't tell if you're referring to impermissible benefits or just receiving a scholarship.

I am referring to the scholarship which is payment for him playing football. That would be playing football when the coach wanted him to play not when he felt like playing.

OK, that's what I figured. So, their "payment" is free schooling. By announcing that they're entering the draft, they're effectively saying that they won't be going to school there anymore (at least not on scholarship). Therefore, since they're no longer receiving "payment," perhaps they're no longer under any obligation to play.

Look, I don't love this trend. As a fan, I'd rather see all the players play, and I think most players probably agree. But I do find it funny that everyone's reaction is that we need to reform the bowl system, rather than we need to reform the NCAA's amateurism system. Fans and reporters always seem to want the system to be set up to maximize benefits for themselves (and coaches), and never the players. It reminds me of all the complaints about the transfer "epidemic."

[bcoach]

Wow, breaking news! What was his salary? Will he have to forfeit any paychecks for missing the bowl game?

Not breaking news to anyone who has remotely heard of NCAA div 1 football.

Ok, I'm going to drop the sarcasm because I can't tell if you're referring to impermissible benefits or just receiving a scholarship.

I am referring to the scholarship which is payment for him playing football. That would be playing football when the coach wanted him to play not when he felt like playing.

OK, that's what I figured. So, their "payment" is free schooling. By announcing that they're entering the draft, they're effectively saying that they won't be going to school there anymore (at least not on scholarship). Therefore, since they're no longer receiving "payment," perhaps they're no longer under any obligation to play.

Look, I don't love this trend. As a fan, I'd rather see all the players play, and I think most players probably agree. But I do find it funny that everyone's reaction is that we need to reform the bowl system, rather than we need to reform the NCAA's amateurism system. Fans and reporters always seem to want the system to be set up to maximize benefits for themselves (and coaches), and never the players. It reminds me of all the complaints about the transfer "epidemic."

Well then they need to leave school immediately or write a check for the balance of the year. See my point is that the university was built to educate people not put them in the NFL. They signed a contract to be paid to play ball so they need to finish their commitment. If they can choose what games they want to play why could it not be the first game of the season, or the 5th game of the season.I also don't understand the parentheses you put around payment. Do you not believe they are being paid to play ball?

[EastHallApp]

Not breaking news to anyone who has remotely heard of NCAA div 1 football.

Ok, I'm going to drop the sarcasm because I can't tell if you're referring to impermissible benefits or just receiving a scholarship.

I am referring to the scholarship which is payment for him playing football. That would be playing football when the coach wanted him to play not when he felt like playing.

OK, that's what I figured. So, their "payment" is free schooling. By announcing that they're entering the draft, they're effectively saying that they won't be going to school there anymore (at least not on scholarship). Therefore, since they're no longer receiving "payment," perhaps they're no longer under any obligation to play.

Look, I don't love this trend. As a fan, I'd rather see all the players play, and I think most players probably agree. But I do find it funny that everyone's reaction is that we need to reform the bowl system, rather than we need to reform the NCAA's amateurism system. Fans and reporters always seem to want the system to be set up to maximize benefits for themselves (and coaches), and never the players. It reminds me of all the complaints about the transfer "epidemic."

Well then they need to leave school immediately or write a check for the balance of the year. See my point is that the university was built to educate people not put them in the NFL. They signed a contract to be paid to play ball so they need to finish their commitment. If they can choose what games they want to play why could it not be the first game of the season, or the 5th game of the season.I also don't understand the parentheses you put around payment. Do you not believe they are being paid to play ball?

No, I don't really think a scholarship is the same as being paid. Even if it is, it's a laughably small payment for players like McCaffery and Fournette compared to the revenue being generated and what their coaches are being paid. Coaches, who, as previously mentioned, leave their teams every year before bowl games to take a new job, and no one's on here wringing their hands about what we need to do to stop it or how it's going to be the end of the bowl system as we know it.

And most players who enter the draft early don't go to school in the spring. Don't know if that's specifically the case here, but that was what I meant by them not going to school anymore.

[fjblair]

JT, I don't know how many players but the most recent example was ND's Jaylon Smith who tore up his knee against Ohio St. in the Fiesta Bowl. He was projected top 5 and ended up getting drafted 34th on the 2nd day. His contract ended up being worth around $6.1m but had Smith been drafted say 3rd, his contract would've been close to $26m. So his injury cost him approximately $20m.

He could also have suffered a more severe injury at any point in the regular season and fell off the board completely. Football is risky. One more game on the schedule is one more game on the schedule. Play it. It's a really bad look in my opinion.

[moonshine]

Kind of hard to feel sorry for a guy who got $6.1m but I understand your point. What if the same injury happened in the previous game?

I hear ya coach. Like I said, as a fan I'd be disappointed but again I couldn't blame someone for choosing to sit out of, what amounts to, an exhibition game. If he were to get hurt in the previous game, it was likely a regular season conference game which I would imagine players put more emphasis on.

[moonshine]

He could also have suffered a more severe injury at any point in the regular season and fell off the board completely. Football is risky. One more game on the schedule is one more game on the schedule. Play it. It's a really bad look in my opinion.

It's true. Players can get hurt at any point during a game or season. However, trying to step back and look at it objectively, unless it's a "playoff" game, the bowl game is nothing more than an exhibition. Sure the program gets a trophy and the players get rings but I'd imagine the players put much more merit into conference titles/rings and national titles than they do for say, the Sun Bowl or Taxslayer.com Bowl. Especially a player who is likely to go top 10 in the draft. Is it a bad look for a guy to forego an after season all-star game? It's just one more game.

Again, I'm not promoting that players do this but I can understand it. I'd be extremely disappointed if an App player sat out but come April, I'd be excited to see said player be drafted within the first hour.

[bcoach]

Kind of hard to feel sorry for a guy who got $6.1m but I understand your point. What if the same injury happened in the previous game?

I hear ya coach. Like I said, as a fan I'd be disappointed but again I couldn't blame someone for choosing to sit out of, what amounts to, an exhibition game. If he were to get hurt in the previous game, it was likely a regular season conference game which I would imagine players put more emphasis on.

I think we are on the same page. I understand they really are exhibition games. My point though is that the players make a commitment to play the season that the school schedules in turn for a pretty nice compensation that depending on the school can amount from 40-50 thousand dollars into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Commitment has gone by the wayside if we find something better in today's society. Regardless of how the bowls are viewed the season is not over till the bowl you are in is over. So now it's the last game of conference play and the team is not in the hunt for a conference championship. The player says we have nothing to gain by winning so I don't want to take a chance on getting hurt so I'm not playing. Let's go a step further. That last game can make the difference in making a bowl and he doesn't play. They then lose and the entire team loses the extra practice time and a bowl. To me it is all about commitment and the lack of it.

[bcoach]

Ok, I'm going to drop the sarcasm because I can't tell if you're referring to impermissible benefits or just receiving a scholarship.

I am referring to the scholarship which is payment for him playing football. That would be playing football when the coach wanted him to play not when he felt like playing.

OK, that's what I figured. So, their "payment" is free schooling. By announcing that they're entering the draft, they're effectively saying that they won't be going to school there anymore (at least not on scholarship). Therefore, since they're no longer receiving "payment," perhaps they're no longer under any obligation to play.

Look, I don't love this trend. As a fan, I'd rather see all the players play, and I think most players probably agree. But I do find it funny that everyone's reaction is that we need to reform the bowl system, rather than we need to reform the NCAA's amateurism system. Fans and reporters always seem to want the system to be set up to maximize benefits for themselves (and coaches), and never the players. It reminds me of all the complaints about the transfer "epidemic."

Well then they need to leave school immediately or write a check for the balance of the year. See my point is that the university was built to educate people not put them in the NFL. They signed a contract to be paid to play ball so they need to finish their commitment. If they can choose what games they want to play why could it not be the first game of the season, or the 5th game of the season.I also don't understand the parentheses you put around payment. Do you not believe they are being paid to play ball?

No, I don't really think a scholarship is the same as being paid. Even if it is, it's a laughably small payment for players like McCaffery and Fournette compared to the revenue being generated and what their coaches are being paid. Coaches, who, as previously mentioned, leave their teams every year before bowl games to take a new job, and no one's on here wringing their hands about what we need to do to stop it or how it's going to be the end of the bowl system as we know it.

And most players who enter the draft early don't go to school in the spring. Don't know if that's specifically the case here, but that was what I meant by them not going to school anymore.

Well we will not agree on the pay part because I just don't see how it is not being paid when you are getting something of value in turn for performing a required function. That is ok though there are many on both sides of that fence. I agree that it is much smaller than what the majority of coaches are making but that has no bearing on the amount the player agreed to on entering the program. The player made a commitment that he is now bailing on. See he got his education didn't he. The school lived up to their commitment. Now are the coaches making way too much money? In my opinion the answer is yes. Are they bailing on their commitments? That would be a yes, but the subject at hand was the players not the coaches. In my opinion if the coach leaves before the bowl there should be a penalty as well, because he was hired for the season not the part that was convenient to him. In other words I am not one who believes in the "well he did it" argument in any given situation. I don't care what he did we are talking about what you did.

[moonshine]

I think we are on the same page. I understand they really are exhibition games. My point though is that the players make a commitment to play the season that the school schedules in turn for a pretty nice compensation that depending on the school can amount from 40-50 thousand dollars into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Commitment has gone by the wayside if we find something better in today's society. Regardless of how the bowls are viewed the season is not over till the bowl you are in is over. So now it's the last game of conference play and the team is not in the hunt for a conference championship. The player says we have nothing to gain by winning so I don't want to take a chance on getting hurt so I'm not playing. Let's go a step further. That last game can make the difference in making a bowl and he doesn't play. They then lose and the entire team loses the extra practice time and a bowl. To me it is all about commitment and the lack of it.

Coach, I think that's one crux of the argument. These games aren't scheduled like the regular season. The program must be invited to the bowl game, which is mainly set up to make money. Their regular season is over. What is their commitment? If said student-athlete completes their degree (December graduate), which I feel is the main commitment between the institution and the student-athlete, prior to the bowl game and plays all originally scheduled regular season games, in your opinion are they still bound to the previous commitment? I realize this does not apply to McCaffrey or Fournette.

I agree with your point that the student-athletes do get "paid" in the form of an education.

Saban weighed in on this issue:

“I think when we created the playoff – which all of you wanted to do and all of you wanted to make it four teams, and now all of you want to make it eight teams, and then pretty soon all you guys are going to want to make it 16 teams – the only focus is on the playoff,” Saban said after the Tide’s practice Wednesday.

“But when we all started this, however many years ago it was, I said that you’re going to diminish the importance of other bowl games in college football, which has happened. All anybody talks about is the playoff."

“We have a whole bunch of other bowl games that people don’t think are all that important. So if you don’t think it’s important, all of a sudden the players don’t think it’s important. So you can’t really blame the players. We created this.”

Saban recalled a trip to the Rose Bowl used to be the “ultimate experience” for any player in the Big Ten. Same for the SEC and the Sugar Bowl and the Big 12 and the Orange Bowl.

“Those things don’t exist anymore,” Saban said. “We have a playoff and everybody is interested in the playoff. Nobody is interested in anything else. So now that that’s trickled down to the players, how could you blame the players for that? I can’t blame the players for that.

“I think what every player has to decide – and what I would say to every player – is I think every player probably benefits from playing really, really well. I think when you play in big games and you play really, really well, I think that enhances your value as a player. … Now, every player would have to make the decision between is that more important, relative to protecting yourself? That’s every player’s choice and every player’s decision.”

[ericsaid]

There is this little thing called integrity and pride; and the children growing up now are no longer instilled with the values that made these things work. In other words, there is no such thing as the "Honor System" anymore.

[bcoach]

I think we are on the same page. I understand they really are exhibition games. My point though is that the players make a commitment to play the season that the school schedules in turn for a pretty nice compensation that depending on the school can amount from 40-50 thousand dollars into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Commitment has gone by the wayside if we find something better in today's society. Regardless of how the bowls are viewed the season is not over till the bowl you are in is over. So now it's the last game of conference play and the team is not in the hunt for a conference championship. The player says we have nothing to gain by winning so I don't want to take a chance on getting hurt so I'm not playing. Let's go a step further. That last game can make the difference in making a bowl and he doesn't play. They then lose and the entire team loses the extra practice time and a bowl. To me it is all about commitment and the lack of it.

Coach, I think that's one crux of the argument. These games aren't scheduled like the regular season. The program must be invited to the bowl game, which is mainly set up to make money. Their regular season is over. What is their commitment? If said student-athlete completes their degree (December graduate), which I feel is the main commitment between the institution and the student-athlete, prior to the bowl game and plays all originally scheduled regular season games, in your opinion are they still bound to the previous commitment? I realize this does not apply to McCaffrey or Fournette.

I agree with your point that the student-athletes do get "paid" in the form of an education.

Saban weighed in on this issue:

“I think when we created the playoff – which all of you wanted to do and all of you wanted to make it four teams, and now all of you want to make it eight teams, and then pretty soon all you guys are going to want to make it 16 teams – the only focus is on the playoff,” Saban said after the Tide’s practice Wednesday.

“But when we all started this, however many years ago it was, I said that you’re going to diminish the importance of other bowl games in college football, which has happened. All anybody talks about is the playoff."

“We have a whole bunch of other bowl games that people don’t think are all that important. So if you don’t think it’s important, all of a sudden the players don’t think it’s important. So you can’t really blame the players. We created this.”

Saban recalled a trip to the Rose Bowl used to be the “ultimate experience” for any player in the Big Ten. Same for the SEC and the Sugar Bowl and the Big 12 and the Orange Bowl.

“Those things don’t exist anymore,” Saban said. “We have a playoff and everybody is interested in the playoff. Nobody is interested in anything else. So now that that’s trickled down to the players, how could you blame the players for that? I can’t blame the players for that.

“I think what every player has to decide – and what I would say to every player – is I think every player probably benefits from playing really, really well. I think when you play in big games and you play really, really well, I think that enhances your value as a player. … Now, every player would have to make the decision between is that more important, relative to protecting yourself? That’s every player’s choice and every player’s decision.”

My thought is that the season is over when the team is finished playing for the year. If the team is still playing you still have a commitment. I personally don't tie it to a December graduation.