App State football in a playoff? [Black & Gold Podcast]

[APPARJ]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

You're assuming a G5 Playoff would happen if the $$$ is less than what it is today and that all playoff games would be neutral site. In that model I'll stand right beside you and protest it as a bad idea.

But a model that generates the same, if not more, revenue where it at least begins at an on campus site against conference CHAMPIONS makes sense.

I don't see why other bowl games involving 8-4 and 7-5 teams would be affected.

To sum up: I'm pro G5 Playoff if it generates as much or more revenue than the current format and involves on campus games for at least the opening round.

[hapapp]

There are no guarantees that a 12-0 App State team makes the Access Bowl but to dismiss it out of hand when we just had an example of a team in WMU from a peer conference do it, makes no sense to me. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.

This from the commissioner of the SEC: SEC commissioner Greg Sankey urged advocates for a Group of Five college football playoff to "be careful" about an idea that could dramatically change NCAA divisions... "I would urge caution before people just run down that road. I'm not one who thinks we just add this on and life goes on as it is."

[AppDawg]

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

In 2017 it may be more than 1 in 10,000. A 12-0 Sun Belt team that beats a bad UGA team and Wake won't make NY6. We can talk about altering the odds when the conference realignment happens.

Does a 12-0 Sun Belt team make the G5PO?

Wow. Beating a bad UGA and Wake will not make NY6.... sure sounds a lot like what WMU did this year... and I bet that UGA and Wake won't be nearly as bad next year as Illinois and Northwestern were in '16.

I'll stand by my claim that a 12-0 App State team gets no NY6 based on our conference. We can split hairs about MAC vs. Sun Belt but it's my opinion all the same. If Georgia is awesome and we beat them then maybe 12-0 does. But it's really silly to talk about 12-0. The odds of that happening AND having other teams that might be in the run for NY6 performing poorly isn't realistic. Oh and not to mention the fact that we'd play a P5 time team where we'd lose. Again, this is all speculation because the odds of all of that happening together is too much IMO.

I am at a loss of words. It is becoming painfully obvious you have a small time view of AppState and what we can become. We should know our place and accept it. We have hit our ceiling in year 2 of FBS play and we should just give up and create an easier way. There is nothing else to play for. It is the "Can't never could" mindset. so we should just give up and settle for less.

Me I prefer that we work hard and be all that we can be. Shock the world. anyone anytime anywhere. Let's strive to reach that elusive mountaintop and be synonymous with the way Boise State and Houston are discussed and respected nationally. The fight to get there will make it all that much sweeter when we accomplish it.

[JTApps1]

There are no guarantees that a 12-0 App State team makes the Access Bowl but to dismiss it out of hand when we just had an example of a team in WMU from a peer conference do it, makes no sense to me. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.

This from the commissioner of the SEC: SEC commissioner Greg Sankey urged advocates for a Group of Five college football playoff to "be careful" about an idea that could dramatically change NCAA divisions... "I would urge caution before people just run down that road. I'm not one who thinks we just add this on and life goes on as it is."

So basically Swanky is confirming what many of us fear will happen if we start a G5 playoff.

[JTApps1]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

You're assuming a G5 Playoff would happen if the $$$ is less than what it is today and that all playoff games would be neutral site. In that model I'll stand right beside you and protest it as a bad idea.

But a model that generates the same, if not more, revenue where it at least begins at an on campus site against conference CHAMPIONS makes sense.

I don't see why other bowl games involving 8-4 and 7-5 teams would be affected.

To sum up: I'm pro G5 Playoff if it generates as much or more revenue than the current format and involves on campus games for at least the opening round.

AJ- What leads you to believe we will generate more money than we already receive? All indications are that TV money for anyone outside of the P5 is drying up. Even their TV payouts could be in trouble long term.

[APPARJ]

Your last point solidifies our point of view. A separate G5 playoff will do away with the "Access to nowhere" Game for a G5. G5 schools will be relegated to their own tournament over time and pushed totally out of 1-A football. (See evolution of 1-AA)...

Even if it doesn't eliminate the "access" game, say you win the hypothetical G5 playoff, if you haven't beat the designated best G5 team because they are in the "Access" game, what have you got? Not much more than the current bowl situation, just more games.

I liked Saints points and the discussion of G5 bowl tie-ins being 1v1 2v2 etc. enough of the conf champ vs 6-6 team.

Genuine question, how are we "in" 1-A football right now that would be so different with a G5 playoff system? The hope against hope for NY6?

We are 1-A in that we are FBS. We are eligible for the "access" game as well as an at-large spot in the current 4-team bracket. (Albeit the stars would have to align in current landscape to get it). However, I have the firm belief, 4 is just a temporary solution (interesting trivia, the 1-AA playoffs started with a 4 team field). They will go to 8 at some point and possibly 12 down the road. I want App to be positioned to be in that conversation.

The G5 playoff thought ends any of those possibilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The P5 visiting Boone, gone. Sure, we will get those games, but they will be on the road just like when we wer FCS.

I'll ask the same question I asked before, why spend all the money and effort to go FBS, if you just throw it away to start the FCS/1-AA clock all over as if we were back in the late 70's?

To answer your question directly: We spent money and effort to get where we are because FBS is BETTER. We now play better teams at home and on the road. We have better and MORE talent on the roster. We wouldn't be throwing ANY of that with a G5PO. Why? Top 8 G5 > Top 8 FCS. G5 football as a whole is better, more competitive and well known (for the purposes of TV) compared to FCS. But you already know that.

Right now:

Odds of us playing in NY6 = .01%

Odds of us playing in CFP (4 or 8 teams)= .001%

Yes. The G5 playoff concept does eliminate those odds. It also means not being able to say we're "eligible" for NY6 and CFP but it's eligibility in name only. It's preserving an empty label.

I've yet to see a compelling reason about why P5's won't come to Boone or why they won't continue to play us. Did Miami really come to Boone because we were eligible for NY6 and CFP? And if the G5 Playoff becomes reality, a P5 like Tennessee would refuse to play us because NOW we're not contenders for NY6? That's not a serious point to use. Also, let's not pretend P5 road games are beneath us ("...just like we were FCS...") after one P5 home game. We'll have home and road P5 games regardless of what model of G5 football exists.

Sorry for the late reply. Busy week!

First, sorry to all for not trimming the quotes. On my phone and frankly it is a pain in the rear.

I think you are severely underestimating the strength of our program.SS has built a strong foundation and I happen to believe we are much closer to being a legit contender for that spot in the near future. It has nothing to do with our program at all and everything to do with the conference we play in an the powers that be almost assuredly refusing to let the Sun Belt darken the door of a NY6 bowl.

Also, the top G5 is already crowned each year via the NY6 game. Just to clarify, Western Michigan is crowned as champ just by stepping on the field with Wisconsin? I think we could play with Western Michigan and I would've loved to play them this year.

As far as P5's in Boone, we are all FBS. That is why Miami came and Wake is. Again, Miami didn't travel to Boone because we're eligible for NY6. We were a G5 program when they scheduled the game and the same would hold true in the future no matter what.

The P5 and G5 is a "meaningless" designation at the moment concocted by ESPN Meaningless? Again, but athletic budgets and revenue side by side and see why that isn't true.

If, a G5 playoff is started, it will effectively create a new division by formally subdividing the current FBS We're already a division without the playoff. G5 will never be in CFP.

The current G5 will become for all intents and purposes the new 1-AA and the Current FCS will be the new D2. That's actually a very accurate assessment I don't get the denial. Except I love the fact that this new "1-AA" is FAR superior to the old one. The same can be said about FCS in that it's a better (not much) version of DII and I'm even more thrilled that we escaped that mess.

Now, once that new G5 division is created, why would a P5 travel to a G5 stadium? They wouldn't because it is lower division. Again, we're already a split division, every AD knows it, and it's not a good reason why P5 games would stop in the least.

We would be the new cupcakes. Not any different than we are today and in fact we're only getting better. You just talked about the program SS has built. It's the deepest and most talented roster ever. Put us up agains the bottom half of P5 and we'd do just fine.

The FBS identification will leave the G5 division. Why? G5 teams play each other in bowls almost exclusively. Why would having 8 teams playing in more important post season games change that?\

More importantly, why would they share any of the CFP $$$ with the G5 schools? Ah... Here is where we're aligned. If a G5 playoff can't produce the same or more revenue for G5 schools as what already exists with the CFP then it won't or shouldn't happen. That said, the P5 is going to cut the G5 out one day so I'm speculating on how we could solve that problem before it happens.

Take away the CFP $ from the G5 and all of our leverage over the P5 is gone. Currently, the CFP rewards strength of schedule. If the CFP goes away, G5's are left with whatever the P5's will pay. I don't understand how doing nothing except adding a few extra post season games impacts demand for G5 match ups when the programs are literally the same.

The 1-AA split occurred with a lot of lofty monetary promises from the NCAA and tv Networks. It failed miserably. I'm not familiar with the exact details of the split but the G5 > FCS which is why this isn't the same situation (albeit slightly similar) and if TV money gets behind it as much as we're taking from CFP today then do it. If not, don't.

The fatal flaw is thinking we can simply replace bowls with a playoff, keep the current regular season landcape the same, still get CFP (P5$) and get just as much TV exposure & media rights $ that we currently do. Seems all too pie in the sky to me. That is pie in the sky but it's also not even close to what I believe will happen. Bowls like Camellia don't have to change by making a few extra games. Some will be eliminated because that's beginning to happen anyway. Again, it's about the dollars. I think a Bowl format that includes conference alignments that produce more interest in match ups, the same Bowls for eligible teams and a playoff among the best of the G5 would be something people would watch in Bowl season and TV would pay for. Maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm perfectly fine not supporting it.

[APPARJ]

There are no guarantees that a 12-0 App State team makes the Access Bowl but to dismiss it out of hand when we just had an example of a team in WMU from a peer conference do it, makes no sense to me. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.

This from the commissioner of the SEC: SEC commissioner Greg Sankey urged advocates for a Group of Five college football playoff to "be careful" about an idea that could dramatically change NCAA divisions... "I would urge caution before people just run down that road. I'm not one who thinks we just add this on and life goes on as it is."

I don't mean to dismiss it because I'd be the first in line if it happens. It's simply my opinion that 12-0 doesn't get us to NY6.

Regarding Greg Sankey, why would he care if it meant more money for P5 schools? Is he looking out for our money that his conference is helping provide? Going rogue for the sake of it doesn't interest me. I want App State to make wise decisions regarding our revenue and costs. Conference alignment would help a lot re: cost too.

[EastHallApp]

It has nothing to do with our program at all and everything to do with the conference we play in an the powers that be almost assuredly refusing to let the Sun Belt darken the door of a NY6 bowl.

On what do you base that assumption?

[APPARJ]

One in 10,000. Completely disagree.

We've been on the fringe of the discussion already the past couple years, and we're an FBS newby in a league that's half made up of other FBS newbies.

Beyond that: If you don't believe we have a plausible chance at being the one G5 team that makes the NY6, why would you think we have much more chance of being the one G5 team that wins the "national championship"?

In 2017 it may be more than 1 in 10,000. A 12-0 Sun Belt team that beats a bad UGA team and Wake won't make NY6. We can talk about altering the odds when the conference realignment happens.

Does a 12-0 Sun Belt team make the G5PO?

Wow. Beating a bad UGA and Wake will not make NY6.... sure sounds a lot like what WMU did this year... and I bet that UGA and Wake won't be nearly as bad next year as Illinois and Northwestern were in '16.

I'll stand by my claim that a 12-0 App State team gets no NY6 based on our conference. We can split hairs about MAC vs. Sun Belt but it's my opinion all the same. If Georgia is awesome and we beat them then maybe 12-0 does. But it's really silly to talk about 12-0. The odds of that happening AND having other teams that might be in the run for NY6 performing poorly isn't realistic. Oh and not to mention the fact that we'd play a P5 time team where we'd lose. Again, this is all speculation because the odds of all of that happening together is too much IMO.

I am at a loss of words. It is becoming painfully obvious you have a small time view of AppState and what we can become. We should know our place and accept it. We have hit our ceiling in year 2 of FBS play and we should just give up and create an easier way. There is nothing else to play for. It is the "Can't never could" mindset. so we should just give up and settle for less.

Me I prefer that we work hard and be all that we can be. Shock the world. anyone anytime anywhere. Let's strive to reach that elusive mountaintop and be synonymous with the way Boise State and Houston are discussed and respected nationally. The fight to get there will make it all that much sweeter when we accomplish it.

Eh. Don't put words in my mouth. You're being slightly dishonest because I've never said we've hit our ceiling and you've heard me say that a lot.

You have an opinion that we should play the lottery and I'm the kind of person that doesn't like being in a system that holds me down.

That's how I see CFP. It doesn't matter how good we are, they'll never let us in. So screw those guys, I'll make my own success.

Granted, it's not exactly like that because we need to be aware of the money issue but you'd call the guy that quits IBM to start a $100 million dollar software company small-minded because he didn't want to run the corporate rat race to be CEO of IBM? So let's chill a little bit, dude. Since we're making observations, it's clear to me that I embrace who we are and love it fully while you have a slight complex on what labels are slapped on us. That's fine but small-minded to oppose your view? Nah.

Genuine question, you think App State will end up a P5 program?

[APPARJ]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

You're assuming a G5 Playoff would happen if the $$$ is less than what it is today and that all playoff games would be neutral site. In that model I'll stand right beside you and protest it as a bad idea.

But a model that generates the same, if not more, revenue where it at least begins at an on campus site against conference CHAMPIONS makes sense.

I don't see why other bowl games involving 8-4 and 7-5 teams would be affected.

To sum up: I'm pro G5 Playoff if it generates as much or more revenue than the current format and involves on campus games for at least the opening round.

AJ- What leads you to believe we will generate more money than we already receive? All indications are that TV money for anyone outside of the P5 is drying up. Even their TV payouts could be in trouble long term.

First of all this is really the root of my interest: App State solvency. You're right about TV money drying up which is why conference realignment is almost certainly going to happen to make things interesting again.

Further, I'm not a TV market or contract expert. Maybe there's no way any TV network would want to pay the G5 for a new alignment and bowl structure with a playoff. If that's the case then I'm not interested.

But I do think there are compelling match ups to be made and based on that and the interest I think it will create, my opinion is TV wouldn't be opposed.

[Saint3333]

But it's really silly to talk about 12-0. The odds of that happening AND having other teams that might be in the run for NY6 performing poorly isn't realistic. Oh and not to mention the fact that we'd play a P5 time team where we'd lose. Again, this is all speculation because the odds of all of that happening together is too much IMO.

I read this on the WMU board two years ago. :lol:

[APPARJ]

But it's really silly to talk about 12-0. The odds of that happening AND having other teams that might be in the run for NY6 performing poorly isn't realistic. Oh and not to mention the fact that we'd play a P5 time team where we'd lose. Again, this is all speculation because the odds of all of that happening together is too much IMO.

I read this on the WMU board two years ago.

And they lost!

LOLz JK I understand your point, Saint!

[appbio91]

Listening now, but I'm going to pause to give my bottom-line thought.

Let's assume a few things:

- Creating a G5 playoff wouldn't affect scheduling opportunities (which I'm not sure about).
- The playoff would be at least feasible financially.
- It's truly almost impossible for a G5 team to make a 4-team CFP (even though in reality we haven't seen a credible candidate yet).
- The CFP will never expand to a size that would make it easier for the G5 to be included (unlikely).
- And let's overlook the travel challenges of asking G5 fans to travel three times in December/early January with maybe only a week to plan each trip.

Here's my question: Which do you consider a bigger prize - beating another G5 for the championship of this newly recognized subdivision, or playing in a NY6 bowl game against a top 10 P5 opponent? Because ultimately, it's a 1:1 trade: Only one team can get the access spot now, and only one team could be G5 national champion in a playoff scenario. For my part, I'll take that NY6 bid every time.

The other seven teams in the playoff are all going to end their season with a loss. That's seven fan bases who will spend eight months being disappointed, rather than several of them being able to celebrate bowl wins.

To me, that's a lot of downsides with not much upside.

Access Bowl w/o a doubt. We just have to accept that until we run the table including a P5 win or two our options are limited. I am fine with where we are. I agree with those who say G5 playoff is accepting also ran status. I understand in reality that is already G5 status.

[JTApps1]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

You're assuming a G5 Playoff would happen if the $$$ is less than what it is today and that all playoff games would be neutral site. In that model I'll stand right beside you and protest it as a bad idea.

But a model that generates the same, if not more, revenue where it at least begins at an on campus site against conference CHAMPIONS makes sense.

I don't see why other bowl games involving 8-4 and 7-5 teams would be affected.

To sum up: I'm pro G5 Playoff if it generates as much or more revenue than the current format and involves on campus games for at least the opening round.

AJ- What leads you to believe we will generate more money than we already receive? All indications are that TV money for anyone outside of the P5 is drying up. Even their TV payouts could be in trouble long term.

First of all this is really the root of my interest: App State solvency. You're right about TV money drying up which is why conference realignment is almost certainly going to happen to make things interesting again.

Further, I'm not a TV market or contract expert. Maybe there's no way any TV network would want to pay the G5 for a new alignment and bowl structure with a playoff. If that's the case then I'm not interested.

But I do think there are compelling match ups to be made and based on that and the interest I think it will create, my opinion is TV wouldn't be opposed.

I'm completely on board with getting better match-ups for all G5 champions. I just prefer setting up a few bowls to host 4 of the G5 Champs and still send the top rated champ to a NY6 bowl. That would keep us involved with the CFP and make the bowls more meaningful to fans. To me that is much more likely to happen than setting up a separate playoff.

BTW, I totally agree with the thoughts y'all shared on the BGP in regards to the Camellia Bowl.

[EastHallApp]

A quick point of order: We were actually closer than most realize to going to the Cotton Bowl this year.

Presumably everyone is familiar with how close we came to going 11-1. The missed PAT/missed FG/OT fumble at Tennessee. The 4th and 6 bomb at Troy. We were literally not only two plays from being 11-1, but two plays that more often than not would have gone our way.

Now, with 56 seconds left in the MAC Championship Game, Ohio had a 1st and 10 at the Western Michigan 37 yard line, trailing 29-23. At that point, they had a pretty decent chance to finish off that drive with a touchdown and win the game. Of course, they didn't - WMU sealed the game with an INT.

But what if they had? And what if App had made those two plays they needed to go 11-1? Then the five (OK, six) eligible teams for the Cotton Bowl would have been:

Temple (10-3)
Western Kentucky (10-3)
San Diego State (10-3)
Ohio (9-4)
Arkansas State (7-5)
Appalachian State (11-1)

Who do you think is getting picked out of that group? It sure SHOULD be us. And again - that's in year three in FBS, with a roster still relying heavily on FCS recruits. Now, if something like that ever happens and we don't get picked, then I'll jump right on board the "Sun Belt can't make the NY6" train. But until then, I think we have to assume that we at least have a fighting chance.

[EastHallApp]

I'm completely on board with getting better match-ups for all G5 champions. I just prefer setting up a few bowls to host 4 of the G5 Champs and still send the top rated champ to a NY6 bowl. That would keep us involved with the CFP and make the bowls more meaningful to fans. To me that is much more likely to happen than setting up a separate playoff.

BTW, I totally agree with the thoughts y'all shared on the BGP in regards to the Camellia Bowl.

Agree. Even setting aside the NY6, I would much prefer a lower-tier bowl vs. either a) another G5 champion, or b) a 7-5 P5 team, to a G5 playoff. Very intrigued by the rotating locations/matchups idea that I believe you and others have discussed here.

[APPARJ]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

You're assuming a G5 Playoff would happen if the $$$ is less than what it is today and that all playoff games would be neutral site. In that model I'll stand right beside you and protest it as a bad idea.

But a model that generates the same, if not more, revenue where it at least begins at an on campus site against conference CHAMPIONS makes sense.

I don't see why other bowl games involving 8-4 and 7-5 teams would be affected.

To sum up: I'm pro G5 Playoff if it generates as much or more revenue than the current format and involves on campus games for at least the opening round.

AJ- What leads you to believe we will generate more money than we already receive? All indications are that TV money for anyone outside of the P5 is drying up. Even their TV payouts could be in trouble long term.

First of all this is really the root of my interest: App State solvency. You're right about TV money drying up which is why conference realignment is almost certainly going to happen to make things interesting again.

Further, I'm not a TV market or contract expert. Maybe there's no way any TV network would want to pay the G5 for a new alignment and bowl structure with a playoff. If that's the case then I'm not interested.

But I do think there are compelling match ups to be made and based on that and the interest I think it will create, my opinion is TV wouldn't be opposed.

I'm completely on board with getting better match-ups for all G5 champions. I just prefer setting up a few bowls to host 4 of the G5 Champs and still send the top rated champ to a NY6 bowl. That would keep us involved with the CFP and make the bowls more meaningful to fans. To me that is much more likely to happen than setting up a separate playoff.

BTW, I totally agree with the thoughts y'all shared on the BGP in regards to the Camellia Bowl.

Thanks!

Also, that's a cool idea. Like it!

[AppDawg]

First, sorry to all for not trimming the quotes. On my phone and frankly it is a pain in the rear.

I think you are severely underestimating the strength of our program.SS has built a strong foundation and I happen to believe we are much closer to being a legit contender for that spot in the near future. It has nothing to do with our program at all and everything to do with the conference we play in an the powers that be almost assuredly refusing to let the Sun Belt darken the door of a NY6 bowl.

Also, the top G5 is already crowned each year via the NY6 game. Just to clarify, Western Michigan is crowned as champ just by stepping on the field with Wisconsin? I think we could play with Western Michigan and I would've loved to play them this year. Yes, they were named the best G5 based on the rankings and body of work, the same way the FBS has always named their best teams until the CFP took hold a few years ago.

As far as P5's in Boone, we are all FBS. That is why Miami came and Wake is. Again, Miami didn't travel to Boone because we're eligible for NY6. We were a G5 program when they scheduled the game and the same would hold true in the future no matter what. They traveled to Boone because we are FBS and they couldn't afford to pay us a money game in Miami. If we were in a different designated/recognized division, they would not have come to Boone.

The P5 and G5 is a "meaningless" designation at the moment concocted by ESPN Meaningless? Again, but athletic budgets and revenue side by side and see why that isn't true. You are making my point. We are NOT in a different division at the moment. Yeah, there are differences between the Big well established conferences and the 5 rather new conferences... but that is on paper and not an officially recognized division.

If, a G5 playoff is started, it will effectively create a new division by formally subdividing the current FBS We're already a division without the playoff. G5 will never be in CFP. see response above, we are not currently in a different division. Are there inequities, sure, but not a different division.

The current G5 will become for all intents and purposes the new 1-AA and the Current FCS will be the new D2. That's actually a very accurate assessment I don't get the denial. Except I love the fact that this new "1-AA" is FAR superior to the old one. The same can be said about FCS in that it's a better (not much) version of DII and I'm even more thrilled that we escaped that mess. History lesson: Once upon a time there were many schools that played Division 1 football. The NCAA approached a set of schools with this grandiose plan to create a playoff division for them and promised increased television access and additional monetary support. Teams had the choice to go or stay. Those that opted for this new division, had scholarship #'s cut and slowly had TV exposure decline to the point that conferences paid for PBS to broadcast games. The two divisions then created 1-A and 1-AA. Substitute Division 1 for "FBS" and this is the fear many of us have. You will have FBS-A and FBS-AA. There was the same concern at the time of the split among many and the NCAA and powers that be reassured it wouldn't happen, yet it did.

Now, once that new G5 division is created, why would a P5 travel to a G5 stadium? They wouldn't because it is lower division. Again, we're already a split division, every AD knows it, and it's not a good reason why P5 games would stop in the least. A split division in mind only. Not a formally recognized division.

We would be the new cupcakes. Not any different than we are today and in fact we're only getting better. You just talked about the program SS has built. It's the deepest and most talented roster ever. Put us up agains the bottom half of P5 and we'd do just fine. Agree. We could do some damage against the bottom half of the P5, however you are advocating for splitting from them to a separate recognized G5 division akin to 1-AA.

The FBS identification will leave the G5 division. Why? G5 teams play each other in bowls almost exclusively. Why would having 8 teams playing in more important post season games change that?\ the same way over time the division 1 moniker left 1-AA. We may be FBS-G5 for a period of time, but it'd ultimately become to be known as something else.

More importantly, why would they share any of the CFP $$$ with the G5 schools? Ah... Here is where we're aligned. If a G5 playoff can't produce the same or more revenue for G5 schools as what already exists with the CFP then it won't or shouldn't happen. That said, the P5 is going to cut the G5 out one day so I'm speculating on how we could solve that problem before it happens.agreed. no way a playoff would generate close to the $ we currently receive. Can look no further than TV dollars for the NIT basketball tournament and/or more closely related the G5 conference TV deals.

Take away the CFP $ from the G5 and all of our leverage over the P5 is gone. Currently, the CFP rewards strength of schedule. If the CFP goes away, G5's are left with whatever the P5's will pay. I don't understand how doing nothing except adding a few extra post season games impacts demand for G5 match ups when the programs are literally the same. see my last point below. It isn't just adding new games, it changes the entire dynamics. This is what Sankey referred to as well... "careful what you wish for."

The 1-AA split occurred with a lot of lofty monetary promises from the NCAA and tv Networks. It failed miserably. I'm not familiar with the exact details of the split but the G5 > FCS which is why this isn't the same situation (albeit slightly similar) and if TV money gets behind it as much as we're taking from CFP today then do it. If not, don't. See history lesson above. At the time of the split, it was the same thing.


The fatal flaw is thinking we can simply replace bowls with a playoff, keep the current regular season landcape the same, still get CFP (P5$) and get just as much TV exposure & media rights $ that we currently do. Seems all too pie in the sky to me. That is pie in the sky but it's also not even close to what I believe will happen. Bowls like Camellia don't have to change by making a few extra games. Some will be eliminated because that's beginning to happen anyway. Again, it's about the dollars. I think a Bowl format that includes conference alignments that produce more interest in match ups, the same Bowls for eligible teams and a playoff among the best of the G5 would be something people would watch in Bowl season and TV would pay for. Maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm perfectly fine not supporting it.This sounds different than a playoff. If I interpret this correctly, I think you are saying align the predominantly G5 bowls with marquee match-ups and do away with a 9 win team playing a 6-6, then I am all for that. I think the bowl situation is currently watered way down with conference "tie-ins". With the expansion over time of regular season games from 10 to 12, I think the threshold for wins should be increased from 6 to 7. This would necessitate the elimination of some games, but it also will produce a better product.

[JTApps1]

A quick point of order: We were actually closer than most realize to going to the Cotton Bowl this year.

Presumably everyone is familiar with how close we came to going 11-1. The missed PAT/missed FG/OT fumble at Tennessee. The 4th and 6 bomb at Troy. We were literally not only two plays from being 11-1, but two plays that more often than not would have gone our way.

Now, with 56 seconds left in the MAC Championship Game, Ohio had a 1st and 10 at the Western Michigan 37 yard line, trailing 29-23. At that point, they had a pretty decent chance to finish off that drive with a touchdown and win the game. Of course, they didn't - WMU sealed the game with an INT.

But what if they had? And what if App had made those two plays they needed to go 11-1? Then the five (OK, six) eligible teams for the Cotton Bowl would have been:

Temple (10-3)
Western Kentucky (10-3)
San Diego State (10-3)
Ohio (9-4)
Arkansas State (7-5)
Appalachian State (11-1)

Who do you think is getting picked out of that group? It sure SHOULD be us. And again - that's in year three in FBS, with a roster still relying heavily on FCS recruits. Now, if something like that ever happens and we don't get picked, then I'll jump right on board the "Sun Belt can't make the NY6" train. But until then, I think we have to assume that we at least have a fighting chance.

It sounds like the Sun Belt will finish as the number 3 league in G5 this year. The league's reputation continues to grow each year which makes a future NY6 game even more realistic.

[bigdaddyg]

Rather than discuss the probability of App making the NY6 bowl, which is better than 1 in 10,000 for next year alone.

Let's discuss the flaws with a G5 playoff.

1. MONEY - for it to work there must be revenue behind it. As pointed out there is a gap between the P5 and G5 budgets, that is driven by TV $$$. The disparity between viewers that would watch a G5 playoff and the P5 playoff is large, probably larger than the disparity between the budgets

2. More games at neutral sites? G5 fans don't bring a ton of fans to the bowls today, now split that fanbase because less than 50% of those can make two games. More fans aren't going to travel to see App play SDSU or W. Mich. is a bowl further away than we did for the Camellia Bowl.

It just doesn't work.

You're assuming a G5 Playoff would happen if the $$$ is less than what it is today and that all playoff games would be neutral site. In that model I'll stand right beside you and protest it as a bad idea.

But a model that generates the same, if not more, revenue where it at least begins at an on campus site against conference CHAMPIONS makes sense.

I don't see why other bowl games involving 8-4 and 7-5 teams would be affected.

To sum up: I'm pro G5 Playoff if it generates as much or more revenue than the current format and involves on campus games for at least the opening round.

I like the idea of the top G5's facing each other in a good bowl game- main ESPN in a prime slot. Tge NY6 still needs to be in place as does the remote possibility of making the BCS championship