I had posted where Fox used AE as his "f-you" to upper management during his final season with the Panthers - I know there were many articles, etc. which talked about this - following is a response from an App fan asking for specifics - If possible please chime in as I agree not many of us care for unwarranted speculation ---

from another poster ---
"Is Fox on record as having said this? I'm not defending Fox, and don't care, but I can't stand speculation on matters like this. Edwards is my all-time favorite Mountaineer, but has struggled mightily to make the transition to WR in the NFL. I can't imagine Fox keeping him on the bench as a vendetta against Richardson for drafting him. Makes no sense. Edwards in his rookie year was in no way prepared to contribute to the team. Anyone who watched him in preseason games could easily see that. He's not much better now, but is making strides and will hopefully get a better opportunity down the road. But again, I don't like to read speculation. Give us some quotes that support your claims about Fox."

I don't recall jon fox ever saying much of anything except "it is what it is". I believe it was a Panthers beat writer that suggested fox was behaving as described.

CVAPP wrote:I don't recall jon fox ever saying much of anything except "it is what it is". I believe it was a Panthers beat writer that suggested fox was behaving as described.

Of course Fox didn't say anything on the record - I'm talking about articles from the Panther beat writers who were there every day ---

I do recall in several interviews Fox giving the impression that Armanti was not his choice as far as the draft is concerned. Fox, after leaving Carolina said that he didn't agree with many decisions that Marty Hurney made in regards to personnel, eluding to the Armanti draft pick. He said that the reason why Carolina had such a bad year his last year was the personnel that he had been given. That is why I disrespect Fox and any team he works with.

WVAPP-I just posted this to AppBear1 on the old board and thought you might want to see it.

I have just one more comment for you and I'll leave you alone. I read your post on the other Fox vs AE thread. You say that until you see a quote from John Fox's mouth that said he sat AE to spite Hurney and Richardson you will continue to defend him. Is that correct? If so, then I have a question for you. Do you think John Fox likes to coach football and would like to continue to coach? Because if you do then him saying those words would not bode well for him in his quest to continue to be a coach. What GM or owner would hire a coach that says he would hurt the team or a player if he didn't agree with the decisions made? Or for that matter what boss in any field would keep an employee who said "you know what boss, I think you are wrong and I'm going to do everything in my power to screw you and your company". Sometimes you have to judge a persons motivations by their actions rather than their words because in any day and age putting something on record can hurt you more than anything you can do without saying it.

WVApp, where are you going with this? The unfortunate world of sports is that teams/coaches/mgmt make decisions all the time about players based on a variety of reasons, good, bad, other. There is a never ending list of players who missed an opportunity to "make it" based on so many factors both within their control and beyond their control.

I think we can all agree Fox was not AE's friend. AE got caught in a battle not his making. AE's chances of making it in NFL as QB were highly unlikely. His chances of making it at a position he had not played in college were probably not good.

Don't read too much into this. Fox was an ass his last year and I could make a case on circumstantial evidence alone that he was not going to go along wiht JR and MH because he didn't get a contract. So passively he did everything from not helping develop AE to calling draws and swing passes on 3rd and long. What I can't understand is why Elway would give him a job..........For heaven's sake he all but openly trashed TeBOW at Denver. I fault Hurney and Jr for not putting Fox's ass on the bench for his " it is what it is" behavior.

AtlAppMan wrote:WVApp, where are you going with this? The unfortunate world of sports is that teams/coaches/mgmt make decisions all the time about players based on a variety of reasons, good, bad, other. There is a never ending list of players who missed an opportunity to "make it" based on so many factors both within their control and beyond their control.

I think we can all agree Fox was not AE's friend. AE got caught in a battle not his making. AE's chances of making it in NFL as QB were highly unlikely. His chances of making it at a position he had not played in college were probably not good.

I agree. As good of a QB that AE was in college, I just never thought he fit the mold size-wise of an NFL QB. I know there are exceptions, but a player Armanti's size is in the minority and at a disadvantage from the get go.

"I agree. As good of a QB that AE was in college, I just never thought he fit the mold size-wise of an NFL QB. I know there are exceptions, but a player Armanti's size is in the minority and at a disadvantage from the get go."

JCline - this discussion was never about AE playing QB in the NFL - it was about John Fox using AE as his tool against upper management ---

I was just saying that maybe Fox didn't have ulterior motives and AE just didn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB and hasn't developed well enough to play the other positions he has been cast into.

JCline0429 wrote:I was just saying that maybe Fox didn't have ulterior motives and AE just didn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB and hasn't developed well enough to play the other positions he has been cast into.

JC-I know you've read what I put on the old MMB so I won't go over that again but as someone who went to every training camp day but one and every home game that year I can tell you that I have never seen a coaching staff less interested in coaching than they were. Even the veteran players were talking about it during the season. Smitty was demanding a trade before the trade deadline that season.

But taking AE completely out of the picture one situation points to what most fans were saying more than any other and that was the BSP QB situation. You have a kid, Tony Pike, who has been there through all training camp and all practices, who is the third QB already, knows the playbook (or in Davidson's case, the play sheet), and JF brings in Brian St. Pierre, a guy that has thrown 12 total passes in the NFL, has been out of the league for more than 2 years, has been with the team for three days, and you put him in as the starter and say "he gives us the best chance to win". We were laughing in the stands during and after that game. We were all saying that we thought JF got his point across to MH and JR today. Everyone around me was joking that the only thing JF could have done better to make his point was to turn and flip the bird right at JR's booth.

Anyone who didn't think Fox was spiteful for that entire season wasn't watching the same Panthers games that myself and 95% of fans were watching...:>) There were even polls on the Huddle and CSR during the year that asked if members thought Fox cared or didn't care about the team and every poll I saw was over 90% doesn't care.

It's over now but the poster on the old MMB was asking for proof in the form of a direct quote from Fox. I'll ask the same question here that I asked him which he didn't answer. If you were an owner or GM of an NFL team and were searching for a new head coach would you hire a guy who said, on record, that "I didn't like the decisions the GM and owner made so I decided to screw the team"? I don't think I'm too far off base here to say a strong NO is the proper answer. Actions can speak louder than words sometimes and patterns of actions speak even louder.

I'll leave with one parting tidbit of info. During the last three years of JF's career with the Panthers many people were asking for him to be fired and I was one of his biggest supporters. But to paraphrase JF himself, I saw what I saw that last season and it was what it was.

I really don't know enough about the situation to comment...but I did It's just that I'm not much one for conspiracy theories but what you say does make sense, although sometimes fans' opinions are wrong. I point to the example of the fire Moore crowd a few years back, then lo and behold, he and his staff engineered a string of Southern Conference championships, three national titles and a win over Michigan.
I hope you're right, though, as it could mean that Armanti still has a chance to suceed on the NFL level.

JCline0429 wrote:I was just saying that maybe Fox didn't have ulterior motives and AE just didn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB and hasn't developed well enough to play the other positions he has been cast into.

AE was never going to be considered for QB with the Panthers. So, whether AE had what it takes to be an NFL QB is moot in this discussion. It's a fact that JF prefers veterans to rookies, and his last team in Carolina was loaded with rookies. As a result, he went out of his way to play veterans over starters. He made comments about questionable "personnel choices," and chose to never play Pike or AE. It seems reasonable to think that JF felt screwed by the FO with the youth movement and decided to return the favor by not playing the rookies unless necessary--especially the ones he didn't want to draft.

AtlAppMan wrote:WVApp, where are you going with this? The unfortunate world of sports is that teams/coaches/mgmt make decisions all the time about players based on a variety of reasons, good, bad, other. There is a never ending list of players who missed an opportunity to "make it" based on so many factors both within their control and beyond their control.

I think we can all agree Fox was not AE's friend. AE got caught in a battle not his making. AE's chances of making it in NFL as QB were highly unlikely. His chances of making it at a position he had not played in college were probably not good.

I agree, conspiracy or not. If Armanti has what it takes, someone else likely will see through Fox's actions and pick him up. The new staff hasn't chosen to play him very much, either.

In the NFL, it is simple, if JR didn't like what JF was doing then he should have fired him sooner. Most owners/GMs don't play around when it comes to dissent from coaches.

JF did what he wanted the last year and it was clear it deviated from mgmt. That is why he is no longer coach. As I said early in thread, AE was caught in crossfire.

In addition, he was not going to play as QB in NFL so his only chance was to excel as a receiver which he has not done. I love him but that is the hard truth.

"In the NFL, it is simple, if JR didn't like what JF was doing then he should have fired him sooner. Most owners/GMs don't play around when it comes to dissent from coaches."

I'm not sure of the specifics but Fox would have be due a huge amount of money if he were released before the end of his contract - that plus the coming lockout had a great deal to do with not releasing him earlier ---

On money point, what is huge when you are talking about a coaches salary/bonus? That is small potatoes relative to entire team payroll. You are talking about pissing away a full season by keeping him if you know you are going to fire him anyway.

On other hand, I agree that NFL was headed towards lockout and that reinforced inaction on mgmt side.