Howard Attendance

[NewApp]

Given the announced attendance is far greater than actual attendance, using the numbers to justify expansion is disingenuous (and wrong). The facts are that, while its nice to dream (especially with other people's (students) money) and its possible we will need expansion in the future, we are not even close to that point. As fans, we can be fanatical--i.e., crazy. But any AD pushing that agenda at this point should be fired.

It is better to have a full stadium every time and turn people away a few times than it be partially empty every time and full only a few times. It's better to have the situation of Cameron Indoor Stadium than the Dean Dome. And considering the downward trend in attendance across the board, which will continue, it would make no sense to bet against this reality. It would be smart to invest in things that would actually lead to success on the field not on physical space we don't need. Plus, students are still paying off the last expansion and they will be asked to continue to pay for the added cost of moving to the Sun Belt. So, in either event, we shouldn't expand unless the fans are willing to pay for it instead of putting it on the students.

RP, APP1990.

[AppOrange]

I love the little old App fans. We can't because we're just little old App. We will only have 12,000 at the game because we schedule bad and the students won't show and we're little old App. The numbers can't be right because I saw empty seats and I know better than the ticket folks at little old App. What a joke these folks are.

We had over double the attendance the "experts" on here predicted with over 24,000 folks. That with a long weekend when students could go home and a forecast of rain! (Oh, I forgot, tourists coming to the mountains who don't support App, and don't have parking or tickets are going to flood the place for an FCS opponent:lol: ). It was a blast. The team played well, the crowd was great, and we saw the best HOF class ever at App!

Sure we may fall flat on our face (to make your negative projections a reality - yay for you), but we still need to be in full expansion planning mode and major upgrade mode! We have huge untapped potential and we will never meet it with the negative approach of some of you people.

How about this for a shake up? Move the track - enclose the end zone where the temp bleachers are snug to the field and above the old field house - fill in the hill end but leave a hill that comes close to the end zone on that end - make a plaza on the filled in area with more restrooms, upgraded concessions, interactive areas for kids - maybe an enclosed area with raised platforms and a bar - then.... cover the east stands in U. Washington fashion to help with sun, snow, and rain (I sat there for two seasons and the sun is as bad as Gonzo stated. With 3:30 starts you can't see the field for about 45 minutes even with sun glasses and the sunburns are epic)

Suck on that doom and gloom crowd! Go App

I would not say you can't see from the east stands on a full sun day, but your sun burn comment was spot on. I was fried after the Howard game, had to take my kids underneath for a few quarters. Lots of folks under there for good portions of the game.

[EastHallApp]

I love the little old App fans. We can't because we're just little old App. We will only have 12,000 at the game because we schedule bad and the students won't show and we're little old App. The numbers can't be right because I saw empty seats and I know better than the ticket folks at little old App. What a joke these folks are.

We had over double the attendance the "experts" on here predicted with over 24,000 folks. That with a long weekend when students could go home and a forecast of rain! (Oh, I forgot, tourists coming to the mountains who don't support App, and don't have parking or tickets are going to flood the place for an FCS opponent:lol: ). It was a blast. The team played well, the crowd was great, and we saw the best HOF class ever at App!

Sure we may fall flat on our face (to make your negative projections a reality - yay for you), but we still need to be in full expansion planning mode and major upgrade mode! We have huge untapped potential and we will never meet it with the negative approach of some of you people.

How about this for a shake up? Move the track - enclose the end zone where the temp bleachers are snug to the field and above the old field house - fill in the hill end but leave a hill that comes close to the end zone on that end - make a plaza on the filled in area with more restrooms, upgraded concessions, interactive areas for kids - maybe an enclosed area with raised platforms and a bar - then.... cover the east stands in U. Washington fashion to help with sun, snow, and rain (I sat there for two seasons and the sun is as bad as Gonzo stated. With 3:30 starts you can't see the field for about 45 minutes even with sun glasses and the sunburns are epic)

Suck on that doom and gloom crowd! Go App

Solid trolling. You thoroughly debunked all those negative things that no one actually said. Although you seem to be confusing "doom and gloom projections" with observations of objective reality. I haven't actually offered any projections about what future attendance might be. I just know what it is now.

FWIW, I think some of your suggestions are intriguing. And I also had a blast Saturday. Glad you did as well.

I'll add "72 and sunny" to the list of excuses for empty seats.

[Saint3333]

The angle of the sun for 3:30 games cannot be tamed by a cover.

Everyone is in favor of raising money and planning ahead, please stop the hyperboles filled posts stating otherwise, it just sounds silly.

[JTApps1]

LOOOOOLLLLLL. You are kidding....right? Every single athletic dept in the country inflates their attendance numbers, maybe you're not the right guy to be commenting on this topic if you are not aware of that pal. If you think 55 out of the last 59 games have been standing room only you must not be paying attention. And that has nothing to do with people sitting on the hill. Our attendance this weekend was pretty good but not even close to a reference point for an expansion. Or any talk of an expansion

We post sales not butts in the seat so in that regard we do not inflate. For us and most programs that isn't a big deal as the majority of our ticket purchasers show up. For a program like UAB who had the local Pepsi distributor buying thousands of tickets (in place of their donation) to meet the 15,000 mark there could be some questions about ethical practices.

We also post tickets we give away FOR FREE to charities and any other organizations. I worked in an athletic department, I know how these things work guys, I promise

How many tickets are you talking on any given week?

[fjblair]

It ain't the old Apps that are claiming the sky is falling.

[Yosef10]

I don't see anyone claiming the sky is falling. I see people throwing hissy fits when others point out real and objective points about the trend of attendance at KBS and the lack of need for expansions. Upgrades, sure; expansion, no.

[Gonzo]

I don't see anyone claiming the sky is falling. I see people throwing hissy fits when others point out real and objective points about the trend of attendance at KBS and the lack of need for expansions. Upgrades, sure; expansion, no.

I see one group throwing out official numbers and comparing those numbers to number of seats in KBS. Then I see a prideful group who would rather invoke subjective nonsense like the "eyeball test" and poo poo our excellent football attendance than admit they were wrong. There's nothing objective about your rhetoric when you continue to deny the official numbers.

It's gotten too catty on this thread, which is why I haven't posted on it in a while, but ftw is right. The numbers don't lie. "Sky is falling" is a hyperbolic way to characterize you, but defeatist, too-conservative, short-sighted, et al is fair.

I'll refer you to my refrain:

We sold more tickets than we had seats to see us play Howard on a holiday weekend

Objective, concise, undeniably factual. No hissy fit from Gonzo.

[clemmonsapp]

I just had to take a couple of jabs to liven up the discussion.

My days as an undergrad ended in 1986. When I arrived at App we were getting drilled by everyone and 10,000 folks made up a really good crowd. There was virtually no tailgating. Game day atmosphere was beyond weak. It was possible to come to Boone on a game day and not even realize a game was happening.

We started the turn things around with a new A.D. and new coach(es). After some progress, the A.D. moved on and the old guard went right back to a safe local choice, because that last out of towner had ruffled too many feathers.

We stayed flat or went backwards for a lost decade+. The answer to every idea or innovation was pulled from the book "101 Reasons We Can't Do That". No innovation, no growth , no how.

I was president of the YOSEF club and pushed for more aggressive fund raising and long term planning and strategies. We were patting ourselves on the back for bringing in $300,000 a year! The answers were always, no, that's not how we do things around here. It was claimed that we couldn't do what other schools are doing - they have more resources or different alumni. We were even forbidden to solicit donations from major groups of alumni!

A Chancellor with a positive attitude and new blood at A.D. allowed us to capitalize on a tremendous effort by our players and coaches. The stadium has been expanded, facilities improved, and we have tailgating and game day atmosphere to rival any in NC. We have gotten (more) serious about fund raising and selling a product and now have topped $3 million annually in YOSEF donations.

Our new Chancellor made a great choice by not reverting to the status quo during our recent A.D. search. (sorry - I love Rick Beasley, but we needed someone from a big time school) We have a guy who is well connected, understands big time athletics, and specializes in raising revenue. We are in the top collegiate level of competition for all sports. It is imperative that we take advantage of the wind at our backs and continue to dream big and move forward! I have seen what it looks like when we lose momentum - staying put means moving backwards!

Lets not argue over a couple thousand folks, sold versus attended, and who counts what. Accept big enthusiastic crowds as validation that folks are and will come and support moving App forward. Together we rise may be the Sun Belt slogan, but it also pertains to App as a family. The only way we can rise is together. The negativism and nit picking everything is a sure recipe for divided we fall.

Try to make your first response "That's a cool idea, how can we make it work" rather than lining up all the possible reasons for failure. The sentiment some on here espouse would have dissuaded us from ever scheduling Michigan. There was no way we could beat them so why try? Be positive - get excited - its so much more fun!

And sorry for the "Suck it" comment - I couldn't help myself.

[Yosef10]

I don't see anyone claiming the sky is falling. I see people throwing hissy fits when others point out real and objective points about the trend of attendance at KBS and the lack of need for expansions. Upgrades, sure; expansion, no.

I see one group throwing out official numbers and comparing those numbers to number of seats in KBS. Then I see a prideful group who would rather invoke subjective nonsense like the "eyeball test" and poo poo our excellent football attendance than admit they were wrong. There's nothing objective about your rhetoric when you continue to deny the official numbers.

It's gotten too catty on this thread, which is why I haven't posted on it in a while, but ftw is right. The numbers don't lie. "Sky is falling" is a hyperbolic way to characterize you, but defeatist, too-conservative, short-sighted, et al is fair.

I'll refer you to my refrain:

We sold more tickets than we had seats to see us play Howard on a holiday weekend

Objective, concise, undeniably factual. No hissy fit from Gonzo.

How is an eyeball test subjective when you can *actually* SEE how many people are there, rather than a number that is simply not true. If you think 24k were there on Saturday then you are sadly mistaken. I never said it was a bad crowd, but it wasn't near capacity. You seem to think number of tickets sold = actual attendance, when in reality that's only a number to throw at sponsors and irrelevant in terms of butts in the seats. But, hell, let's go ahead and break ground; spending money we don't have and adding seats we don't need, Great idea!

[Yosef10]

You see ALLLLL those seats? Yeah, objective, concise , undeniably factual

[roachgone]

Hey, clemmonsapp , I don't know who you are (probably do know you)but I agree 100%. I fought for yrs to get to old guard out of Boone. My old name was Roachout! Now Roachgone, thank the Lord. I am not gonna get into all this in detail but generally speaking when a building (church, stadium etc.) is consistently at 80 to 85% capacity it is time to start expansion plans. Having a little metal showing for half the games is not nearly as important as being able to put 35 to 40,000 in the place for one two or three games. Marshall and Wake will easily be 35,000 if we can accommodate. ECU would easily 40,000. But we will never have the additional revenue if we can't sell the tickets. 20,000 additional tix sold during a season at $75 a pop is $1,500,000 additional $$. That plus a fund raising campaign would go a long way to debt retirement. I have confidence in the people running things now so I feel sure things will be done right. But the new AD does understand about what I have just covered. We will never have ECU or any other program that will bring 8,000 to 10,000 fans without a bigger place. That inability to accommodate with lost $$.

[Gonzo]

I don't see anyone claiming the sky is falling. I see people throwing hissy fits when others point out real and objective points about the trend of attendance at KBS and the lack of need for expansions. Upgrades, sure; expansion, no.

I see one group throwing out official numbers and comparing those numbers to number of seats in KBS. Then I see a prideful group who would rather invoke subjective nonsense like the "eyeball test" and poo poo our excellent football attendance than admit they were wrong. There's nothing objective about your rhetoric when you continue to deny the official numbers.

It's gotten too catty on this thread, which is why I haven't posted on it in a while, but ftw is right. The numbers don't lie. "Sky is falling" is a hyperbolic way to characterize you, but defeatist, too-conservative, short-sighted, et al is fair.

I'll refer you to my refrain:

We sold more tickets than we had seats to see us play Howard on a holiday weekend

Objective, concise, undeniably factual. No hissy fit from Gonzo.

How is an eyeball test subjective when you can *actually* SEE how many people are there, rather than a number that is simply not true. If you think 24k were there on Saturday then you are sadly mistaken. I never said it was a bad crowd, but it wasn't near capacity. You seem to think number of tickets sold = actual attendance, when in reality that's only a number to throw at sponsors and irrelevant in terms of butts in the seats. But, hell, let's go ahead and break ground; spending money we don't have and adding seats we don't need, Great idea!

It's subjective because of that's what subjective means.

Subjectively, I sat on the east stands and saw the people crammed on the hill and into every seat the west stands and temporary ez seating had to offer. I moved over to the west to escape the sun just like the former occupants of the empty east side seats, the ones you've clung to as the only explanation for your low-ball observations. You were never good at the guess-how-many-M&Ms-are-in-this-jar contest, were you?

Subjectivity aside, even if your conspiracy theory is true and we had thousands and thousands of people who paid for tickers and didn't show up, we still sold more tickets than we had seats to see us play Howard on a holiday weekend. Those are official numbers. Empirical evidence. An objective standard of review. That's certified proof of demand exceeding supply, and in arguably the least desirable home game of the season.

[Gonzo]

I took this snap chat while thousands were still clogged up in the entrance.

[asucrutch23]

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You see ALLLLL those seats? Yeah, objective, concise , undeniably factual

I'm not in any way guaranteeing that these folks would fill in those empty seats, but here is a shot of the grass hill on that same play:

[Yosef10]

No way Gonz, you have a vid that shows the WEST side full? SHOCKER! Not. But hey I'll give this a rest now. And to clarify in no way was I bashing or downplaying the crowd, it was pretty decent. Just not a sign to expand. Hopefully we'll pack some more in there in coming weeks.

[appst89]

I believe the number announced for Saturday was accurate. There were more than enough people on the hill to fill the East stands. KBS capacity is 24k and some change. There were easily that many there.

We need to have an expansion plan in place and we need to hope that Gillin is out shaking the bushes for a way to pay for it. And we need to be ready to pull the trigger on it when it is time. My only concern (the CPA coming out in me) is that we are sure it is economically responsible when we do expand. Putting more on the backs of the students is not an acceptable plan, in my opinion, nor is doing this on the cheap. We've already seen what that looks like.

[Gonzo]

No way Gonz, you have a vid that shows the WEST side full? SHOCKER! Not. But hey I'll give this a rest now. And to clarify in no way was I bashing or downplaying the crowd, it was pretty decent. Just not a sign to expand. Hopefully we'll pack some more in there in coming weeks.

And the temp EZ, and the hill.

Anyway, agree to disagree. I'm just glad you're not our AD or in any administrative capacity in which I have a vested interest.

[EastHallApp]

Again, there was never any point at which the east side or the lawn were anywhere close to full. Maybe sitting on that side, it seemed fuller than it was. I sat on the west side the entire game, and the empty seats on the east were plentiful from start to finish.

We obviously can't see how many seats actually went unsold after the fact, nor do we know how many were sold at the discount prices offered in the week prior to the game. But we could see on the ticket website that thousands were unsold in the days leading up to the game. Here are the current approximate unsold numbers for our remaining games (reserved seats only):

Wyoming (Homecoming): 2,700
Ga. Southern: 3,700
Troy: 3,100
A-State: nearly 6,000
ULL: nearly 6,000

While I know people will point to the Thursday night and post-Thanksgiving dates for keeping down non-student sales (and correctly so), keep in mind that those factors theoretically should actually help sales for the other games. For non-local fans who don't buy season tickets but pick 1-2 games per year to attend - the ones most affected by weeknight/holiday games - they should actually be funneled disproportionately to the Troy and especially Wyoming games.

[AppStateNews]

While there were empty seats on the East side, those tickets were sold and many of them moved to the hill or West side..

Yosef10, since those tickets are sold, what is the University to do if they don't show up? Resell them? I think the point is we had just north of 24,000 paying customers. Did all show up? No, but there will never be a game where all paying customers show up.

The issue is what is the university supposed to do? Not report on the numbers of tickets sold? After all, tickets sold is what generates the revenue -- not the customers showing up (minus the concession sales). Or, resell the tickets for customers that don't show up by a certain time?