# of Clemson tickets sold?

[Saint3333]

When we start winning again and some hype returns, the butts in the seats will return. It's as simple as that.

That being said, we can't wait until that happens to expand. You don't take a project like that on at the drop of a hat and we are likely to have high attendance years and lower attendance years along the way.

There is validity (based somewhat on assumptions, but valid nonetheless) to what many are saying here, but again I've yet to understand who is paying for this.

[moehler]

Saint I agree with you 100%, you don't do expansion without a well designed plan, that's how schools get themselves in trouble, going into debt, without a plan to pay it back. In our case, I think there is one area that we need to focus on that's been lacking in the past and that's, corporate fund raising. I'm encouraged that our AD has already made strides in that area, but we really need more corporate support. I know its tough right now with the economy, and we just finished the successful 200 million dollar fund raising campaign, but It wouldn't be such a horrible idea to start a 2 or 3 yr fund raising aimed specifically at improvements to the stadium, even if you raise only 5 or 10 million dollars, it still would go a long way. My point is, even if a fund raiser isn't a good idea at this time, whats important is we start planning now, so in 3 or 4 years when its time to build everything will be in place.

[AppDawg]

When we start winning again and some hype returns, the butts in the seats will return. It's as simple as that.

That being said, we can't wait until that happens to expand. You don't take a project like that on at the drop of a hat and we are likely to have high attendance years and lower attendance years along the way.

We just rolled off 6 FBS wins in a row. Win again? Thats never happened in the history of App Football. Further, winning again doesn't explain how our attendance went through the roof for the home opener in 2005 against a Coastal Carolina team that was in its 3rd year of football ever. It also doesn't explain that we, ourselves, were coming off a terrible year in 2004 where we lost every single road game including an embarrassing loss at Western Carolina in the last game of the season. We open 2005 on the road at EKU and squeak by with a W (but finally get a road win) then we get blown out on the road at Kansas the following week. NOTHING going into that home opener pointed to us having "righted the ship" but the crowd showed up in force. Arguably, in my opinion, we are in a much better position right now given the way we closed out last year than we were on Septemper 3, 2005.

Things just don't add up.

[nomadb]

When we start winning again and some hype returns, the butts in the seats will return. It's as simple as that.

That being said, we can't wait until that happens to expand. You don't take a project like that on at the drop of a hat and we are likely to have high attendance years and lower attendance years along the way.

We just rolled off 6 FBS wins in a row. Win again? Thats never happened in the history of App Football. Further, winning again doesn't explain how our attendance went through the roof for the home opener in 2005 against a Coastal Carolina team that was in its 3rd year of football ever. It also doesn't explain that we, ourselves, were coming off a terrible year in 2004 where we lost every single road game including an embarrassing loss at Western Carolina in the last game of the season. We open 2005 on the road at EKU and squeak by with a W (but finally get a road win) then we get blown out on the road at Kansas the following week. NOTHING going into that home opener pointed to us having "righted the ship" but the crowd showed up in force. Arguably, in my opinion, we are in a much better position right now given the way we closed out last year than we were on Septemper 3, 2005.

Things just don't add up.

We rolled off 6 FBS wins after going 1-5 and losing to Liberty at home. While those of us who frequent an appstate football message board and pay attention noticed what happened, the casual fan (who accounts for the missing 12k people) probably has no idea how strong we finished last year and that we are bringing back 20 starters and will have a potentially great team.

We will win. Hype will return and seats will fill up. There was no hype last year. And call it an excuse, but by the time we started winning last year there were just a handful of really cold, really nasty home games left and people don't line up to sit in that when the best case scenario is us finishing 7-5 for 3rd in the conference. Our fans have higher expectations.

[97grad]

Where is the evidence that more seats, which based on recent trends would almost certainly be empty, will attract higher quality opponents? We still have geography working against us there. Even if we are lucky and the crowds start returning soon, there are way worse problems to have than your tickets being hard to come by. That in and of itself can build hype. I mean come on, we haven't even finished paying for our last expansion yet.

[nomadb]

Where is the evidence that more seats, which based on recent trends would almost certainly be empty, will attract higher quality opponents? We still have geography working against us there. Even if we are lucky and the crowds start returning soon, there are way worse problems to have than your tickets being hard to come by. That in and of itself can build hype. I mean come on, we haven't even finished paying for our last expansion yet.

I'd look to ECU for the evidence.

Also, you will not even have the option of having many P5 schools coming without more seats.

I'd also say that there are no guarantees that we will ever fill up the stadium after expansion. I believe we can put 40k butts in the seat down the road, but there are no guarantees for sure.

[97grad]

While those of us who frequent an appstate football message board and pay attention noticed what happened, the casual fan (who accounts for the missing 12k people) probably has no idea how strong we finished last year and that we are bringing back 20 starters and will have a potentially great team.

So your assertion is that these fans, who probably drove 2-3 hours each way for one or more games earlier in the season, not only stopped attending but also stopped even paying attention to App football? And even now ~9 months later still haven't heard that we finished out strong and are looking to make a run this year? Really?

[MtnDevil95]

Where is the evidence that more seats, which based on recent trends would almost certainly be empty, will attract higher quality opponents? We still have geography working against us there. Even if we are lucky and the crowds start returning soon, there are way worse problems to have than your tickets being hard to come by. That in and of itself can build hype. I mean come on, we haven't even finished paying for our last expansion yet.

I tend to agree with this. . . there can be a mystique built around filling a smaller stadium to capacity week in and week out that creates a better atmosphere and generates more buzz than empty stands in a larger venue. Yeah Michigan, Ohio State, the NFL farm system known as the SEC have 100,000+ staadiums and they fill them up, but loudest stadioum in American football? CenturyLink Field in Seattle holds 67,000 and is deafening. Compare that experience to the wine and cheese crowd in Kenan Stadium at 62,000. More is not always better.

[nomadb]

So your assertion is that these fans, who probably drove 2-3 hours each way for one or more games earlier in the season, not only stopped attending but also stopped even paying attention to App football? And even now ~9 months later still haven't heard that we finished out strong and are looking to make a run this year? Really?

If you believe everyone who comes to football games actually "follows" the football program, you're a bit deluded.

Are you asserting that winning games, conference championships and garnering attention and hype doesn't draw bigger crowds? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you're asserting.

I believe the people you're talking about quit planning on making that 2-3 hour drive after the Liberty debacle. And I don't blame them.

If we somehow were to knock off Clemson in week 2, I would bet my car that we fill up Kidd Brewer the next home game. Do you disagree?

[nomadb]

I tend to agree with this. . . there can be a mystique built around filling a smaller stadium to capacity week in and week out that creates a better atmosphere and generates more buzz than empty stands in a larger venue. Yeah Michigan, Ohio State, the NFL farm system known as the SEC have 100,000+ staadiums and they fill them up, but loudest stadioum in American football? CenturyLink Field in Seattle holds 67,000 and is deafening. Compare that experience to the wine and cheese crowd in Kenan Stadium at 62,000. More is not always better.

While I do agree that you don't want to expand to the point where there is nothing but aluminum showing, I'm not talking about that level of expansion. I'm thinking about expanding to 30-40k seats. I believe if we can put 30k in the stadium for Elon, we can put 40k in for ECU or Marshall or even Wake provided our program is winning and improving and the fans are excited.

At 40k seats you can start drawing more well known teams for home and homes

[97grad]

So your assertion is that these fans, who probably drove 2-3 hours each way for one or more games earlier in the season, not only stopped attending but also stopped even paying attention to App football? And even now ~9 months later still haven't heard that we finished out strong and are looking to make a run this year? Really?

If you believe everyone who comes to football games actually "follows" the football program, you're a bit deluded.

Are you asserting that winning games, conference championships and garnering attention and hype doesn't draw bigger crowds? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you're asserting.

I believe the people you're talking about quit planning on making that 2-3 hour drive after the Liberty debacle. And I don't blame them.

If we somehow were to knock off Clemson in week 2, I would bet my car that we fill up Kidd Brewer the next home game. Do you disagree?

Yes performance on the field plays into attendance. But my point is that you can't blame our low numbers on that entirely. Because in point of fact we finished the latter half of last season out as strong as anyone possibly could. I don't find the notion that fans somehow missed that very plausible.

[nomadb]

Yes performance on the field plays into attendance. But my point is that you can't blame our low numbers on that entirely. Because in point of fact we finished the latter half of last season out as strong as anyone possibly could. I don't find the notion that fans somehow missed that very plausible.[/quote]

I don't think it's the only factor, but I do feel like it's one of the biggest and most obvious factors.

You have any ideas as to what else could be driving down attendance?

[hapapp]

So your assertion is that these fans, who probably drove 2-3 hours each way for one or more games earlier in the season, not only stopped attending but also stopped even paying attention to App football? And even now ~9 months later still haven't heard that we finished out strong and are looking to make a run this year? Really?

If you believe everyone who comes to football games actually "follows" the football program, you're a bit deluded.

Are you asserting that winning games, conference championships and garnering attention and hype doesn't draw bigger crowds? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you're asserting.

I believe the people you're talking about quit planning on making that 2-3 hour drive after the Liberty debacle. And I don't blame them.

If we somehow were to knock off Clemson in week 2, I would bet my car that we fill up Kidd Brewer the next home game. Do you disagree?

Why then the big crowd to start the 2005 season after losing to Western to close out 2004 and starting 1-1 to start the season?

[nomadb]

So your assertion is that these fans, who probably drove 2-3 hours each way for one or more games earlier in the season, not only stopped attending but also stopped even paying attention to App football? And even now ~9 months later still haven't heard that we finished out strong and are looking to make a run this year? Really?

If you believe everyone who comes to football games actually "follows" the football program, you're a bit deluded.

Are you asserting that winning games, conference championships and garnering attention and hype doesn't draw bigger crowds? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you're asserting.

I believe the people you're talking about quit planning on making that 2-3 hour drive after the Liberty debacle. And I don't blame them.

If we somehow were to knock off Clemson in week 2, I would bet my car that we fill up Kidd Brewer the next home game. Do you disagree?

Why then the big crowd to start the 2005 season after losing to Western to close out 2004 and starting 1-1 to start the season?

I don't know. That's an excellent question. I'd love to hear your theory on that.

But, it doesn't change the fact that winning programs have full stadiums and losing programs don't.

[ASUMountaineer]

So your assertion is that these fans, who probably drove 2-3 hours each way for one or more games earlier in the season, not only stopped attending but also stopped even paying attention to App football? And even now ~9 months later still haven't heard that we finished out strong and are looking to make a run this year? Really?

If you believe everyone who comes to football games actually "follows" the football program, you're a bit deluded.

Are you asserting that winning games, conference championships and garnering attention and hype doesn't draw bigger crowds? Because it sounds like that's exactly what you're asserting.

I believe the people you're talking about quit planning on making that 2-3 hour drive after the Liberty debacle. And I don't blame them.

If we somehow were to knock off Clemson in week 2, I would bet my car that we fill up Kidd Brewer the next home game. Do you disagree?

Why then the big crowd to start the 2005 season after losing to Western to close out 2004 and starting 1-1 to start the season?

That's a good question. What changed that promoted the big crowd, and what changed causing a decrease?

[nomadb]

what year was it when the game times changed from 12:30 to 3:30 and the tailgating policies loosened up?

[97grad]

My concern is that some of the decline is due to disagreement with the move to FBS. I don't have any evidence of this, and I don't even think it's likely, but if true could signal more of an extended lull as these fans come around to our new situation.

[nomadb]

My concern is that some of the decline is due to disagreement with the move to FBS. I don't have any evidence of this, and I don't even think it's likely, but if true could signal more of an extended lull as these fans come around to our new situation.

I agree and share that suspicion. I still think that success at the FBS level will draw those people back to the stadium.

[Saint3333]

Yes performance on the field plays into attendance. But my point is that you can't blame our low numbers on that entirely. Because in point of fact we finished the latter half of last season out as strong as anyone possibly could. I don't find the notion that fans somehow missed that very plausible.

I don't think it's the only factor, but I do feel like it's one of the biggest and most obvious factors.

You have any ideas as to what else could be driving down attendance?

Price point relative to ease of access to our games and other forms of similar entertainment.

Attendance at many universities is down year over year, yet TV viewership grows by an even greater percentage.

We have witnessed a culture shift in watching sports over the past decade as the trend continues. Now it is more important to enhance the experience inside the stadium. Fewer and fewer people view the standard seat (with increased pricing) as worth it when they can watch the game on TV.

Think of how much easier it is to not only watch our games, but all college sports (FBS and FCS) and pro sports on TV. Comparing what impact winning will have on our attendance today versus just five years ago isn't a one to one comparison.

Someone asked why attendance jumped in 2005 following a 6-5 campaign? Two reasons, one, enhanced tailgate experience, and two, improved communication off the mountain.

All this said we should be able to put 25k in our stadium no matter who we play. The ticket folks have done a good job getting creative with ticket packages (and have probably put in more hours than they have the last few years I have to add), but pre-game sales are down compared to just a few short years ago.

We have to find a way to engage more fans off the mountain, I wish I had the magic bullet.

[Yosef84]

My concern is that some of the decline is due to disagreement with the move to FBS. I don't have any evidence of this, and I don't even think it's likely, but if true could signal more of an extended lull as these fans come around to our new situation.

I really don't think that is the reason, but if it is then a solid season this year will pull those people back in. Two consecutive strong league finishes in years 1 and 2 should convince anyone who is open to facts.

Let' see what attendance is this Saturday. I'm still hopeful that it will be much better than some expect.

The arguments about "proving demand" seem tired to me. Those arguments were made years ago and have been followed by several years of over capacity attendance. Yes, we are down NOW, but the demand has already been proven. In a project that takes a couple of years to realize, waiting to Exceed capacit MORE to justify an expansion is actually waiting too late. Yes, this is a business, but businesses prepare forecasts and sales projections. No business in growth mode is going to limit its sales staff by capping their capacity at last year's sales.

In my opinion, the only valid argument against expansion is currently the fiscal argument. We need a plan to finance it...or better yet we need to find one of those coveted corporate donors to help fund the expansion. I think it's time to put the naming rights back into the mix and get busy. We have a new AD with a new staff and that is supposed to be their strength. Let's let them do their job and figure out how to fund the expansion that we NEED in a responsible manner. THAT is the hurdle.

The Demand has been there before and will be there again. I'm not saying we need to go to 40K but we need 28 - 30K of permanent seating. I absolutely agree with being fiscally responsible in how we do it. That might delay things, but I have ZERO doubt that the AD staff are already working on this.