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12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:17 am

I have always felt that college football in particular would be better (from a ranking standpoint) if there were no polls until after the 6th game. The preseason polls are terrible for the G5 schools because most of the potentially good teams are behind the 8 ball almost immediately. How many times do “traditional “ P5 schools get highly ranked early then stink and tumble? The really traditionally strong P5’s get a pass if they lose a close early game but typically don’t fall completely out. If all of the major polls waited until the midway point then maybe a 6-0 App team with 2 nice P5 wins would start out in the top 15.

My other idea involves scheduling. Eliminate any FCS games completely. If those schools need a money game let them play a P5 for their Spring game and get the nice check then. More often than not the regular game pitting WCU and Alabama is really the same as a scrimmage so why not just let them play in a regular Spring game? Fans would still come out and if by some chance the P5 “loses” it’s not a big deal. As far as the regular season goes require every P5 to play 8 conference games, 2 P5 non-conference games and 2 G5’s. Every G5 plays 8 conference, 2 P5’s and 2 G5 non-conference. The G5’s could also play regionally local FCS teams for their Spring game. I could see a nice March day at the Rock with 20k fans watching us play ETSU.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by AppWyo » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:50 am

If it were not for the polls we would have nothing to talk about. The spring game is about moral boosting, not about winning or losing.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by Yosef84 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:36 am

AppWyo wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:54 pm
Getting in the AAC is small time compared to what Appalachian wants to do, besides that, there are no big time markets in North Carolina besides Charlotte and even that is a big time stretch. Think about this, if Wake, Duke, Carolina, and State were not in the ACC when it formed as a regional conference then they would not even be considered relevant today, because those schools are not located in big time market areas.
That's probably not accurate. The market-based criteria applies to expansion targets, not to the creation of the P5. Of course, the argument becomes circular in that these programs have risen based on the success of the ACC Tournament, but the argument could also be made that the ACC has risen (basketball) specifically because of these programs. If these 4 programs were aligned, that conference would probably be a player today regardless of the name. Also, UNC is the state flagship and NCSU is the largest university in the state. North Caroline isn't California or New York in terms of markets, but saying there are no major markets is a stretch. The triangle is pretty significant. Wake Forest is probably the only "coat tail rider" in this bunch, although they've even had their moments.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:41 am

AppWyo wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:50 am
If it were not for the polls we would have nothing to talk about. The spring game is about moral boosting, not about winning or losing.
I really didn’t mean to imply that the Spring game was important for winning or losing. The big boys still have huge crowds for those games. Why not let those games be glorified scrimmages with the FCS instead of gold/black or blue/white, etc? Charge some admission obviously and let the FCS guys get a paycheck. Still a huge moral booster complete with tailgating and the other game day stuff. A school like App will gain nothing now with a win over a Morgan State if the goal is to be in the top 12. An Alabama can still play Troy and Ball State at home and it doesn’t hurt their resume a bit. We will need to play and beat a Texas A&M, UNC and two good G5’s along with an unbeaten conference slate.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by Yosef84 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:57 am

bigdaddyg wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:17 am
I have always felt that college football in particular would be better (from a ranking standpoint) if there were no polls until after the 6th game. The preseason polls are terrible for the G5 schools because most of the potentially good teams are behind the 8 ball almost immediately. How many times do “traditional “ P5 schools get highly ranked early then stink and tumble? The really traditionally strong P5’s get a pass if they lose a close early game but typically don’t fall completely out. If all of the major polls waited until the midway point then maybe a 6-0 App team with 2 nice P5 wins would start out in the top 15.

My other idea involves scheduling. Eliminate any FCS games completely. If those schools need a money game let them play a P5 for their Spring game and get the nice check then. More often than not the regular game pitting WCU and Alabama is really the same as a scrimmage so why not just let them play in a regular Spring game? Fans would still come out and if by some chance the P5 “loses” it’s not a big deal. As far as the regular season goes require every P5 to play 8 conference games, 2 P5 non-conference games and 2 G5’s. Every G5 plays 8 conference, 2 P5’s and 2 G5 non-conference. The G5’s could also play regionally local FCS teams for their Spring game. I could see a nice March day at the Rock with 20k fans watching us play ETSU.
I don't disagree with your opinion about pre-season and early-season polls. That said, we will never get away from having them because they are driven by the media in order to increases interest. In this "information age" there will always be someone generating these kinds of comparisons and rankings.

Regarding the FCS games, I have mixed feelings but I do agree that for a G5 team targeting the NY6, these games are counter-productive.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by bigdaddyg » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:12 am

Yosef84 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:57 am
bigdaddyg wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:17 am
I have always felt that college football in particular would be better (from a ranking standpoint) if there were no polls until after the 6th game. The preseason polls are terrible for the G5 schools because most of the potentially good teams are behind the 8 ball almost immediately. How many times do “traditional “ P5 schools get highly ranked early then stink and tumble? The really traditionally strong P5’s get a pass if they lose a close early game but typically don’t fall completely out. If all of the major polls waited until the midway point then maybe a 6-0 App team with 2 nice P5 wins would start out in the top 15.

My other idea involves scheduling. Eliminate any FCS games completely. If those schools need a money game let them play a P5 for their Spring game and get the nice check then. More often than not the regular game pitting WCU and Alabama is really the same as a scrimmage so why not just let them play in a regular Spring game? Fans would still come out and if by some chance the P5 “loses” it’s not a big deal. As far as the regular season goes require every P5 to play 8 conference games, 2 P5 non-conference games and 2 G5’s. Every G5 plays 8 conference, 2 P5’s and 2 G5 non-conference. The G5’s could also play regionally local FCS teams for their Spring game. I could see a nice March day at the Rock with 20k fans watching us play ETSU.
I don't disagree with your opinion about pre-season and early-season polls. That said, we will never get away from having them because they are driven by the media in order to increases interest. In this "information age" there will always be someone generating these kinds of comparisons and rankings.

Regarding the FCS games, I have mixed feelings but I do agree that for a G5 team targeting the NY6, these games are counter-productive.
If WCU agreed to “play” Clemson for the Spring game they would still get $500k at least. If somehow WCU “won” that game it would not mean anything because Clemson will play everyone. I can see more and more of the top G5’s eliminating these crappy games from their schedules.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by APPdiesel » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:32 am

bigdaddyg wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:17 am
I have always felt that college football in particular would be better (from a ranking standpoint) if there were no polls until after the 6th game. The preseason polls are terrible for the G5 schools because most of the potentially good teams are behind the 8 ball almost immediately. How many times do “traditional “ P5 schools get highly ranked early then stink and tumble? The really traditionally strong P5’s get a pass if they lose a close early game but typically don’t fall completely out. If all of the major polls waited until the midway point then maybe a 6-0 App team with 2 nice P5 wins would start out in the top 15.

My other idea involves scheduling. Eliminate any FCS games completely. If those schools need a money game let them play a P5 for their Spring game and get the nice check then. More often than not the regular game pitting WCU and Alabama is really the same as a scrimmage so why not just let them play in a regular Spring game? Fans would still come out and if by some chance the P5 “loses” it’s not a big deal. As far as the regular season goes require every P5 to play 8 conference games, 2 P5 non-conference games and 2 G5’s. Every G5 plays 8 conference, 2 P5’s and 2 G5 non-conference. The G5’s could also play regionally local FCS teams for their Spring game. I could see a nice March day at the Rock with 20k fans watching us play ETSU.
Preseason rankings definitely overvalue P5s and undervalue G5s. We all assume that the unofficial AP rankings affect the initial CFP rankings but we don’t know that for sure. We don’t KNOW that the committee sits there with the newspaper in hand and says “yeah that seems right let’s go with that”.

I’m not about forcing scheduling, but spring games need to become like early-season basketball tournaments. Get 2-4 programs together in a 2-3 day camp “invitational” scenario (think Alabama, Troy, Georgia Tech, and Kennesaw State or NC State, App State, Virginia Tech and Richmond). Sell tickets and concessions, merch, media coverage, do autograph sessions and split the money. Make it a spectacle. You could do it on a 4 year rotation where each school hosts once.
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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by ah59396 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:02 pm

AAC dark horse may be NDSU.

They have not wanted to move up previously due to the belief that you can’t win a Natty as a G5, which was/is true.

They are arguably a state flagship, carry a strong brand and actually bring good basketball, reaching the tourney 4x since 2009.

Fargo is certainly no Houston but they are an R2 designated university, something else the AAC looks for.

I’m also of the belief that they are the ONLY FCS team that’s brand and history of success outweighs its FCS designation.


If they believe now is the time to join FBS because of the change in format, I think they’d be an immediate favorite. I also think once this CFP change happens all the G5 conferences will close the doors to joining, so now is the time to jump.
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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by AppSt94 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:31 pm

ah59396 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:02 pm
AAC dark horse may be NDSU.

They have not wanted to move up previously due to the belief that you can’t win a Natty as a G5, which was/is true.

They are arguably a state flagship, carry a strong brand and actually bring good basketball, reaching the tourney 4x since 2009.

Fargo is certainly no Houston but they are an R2 designated university, something else the AAC looks for.

I’m also of the belief that they are the ONLY FCS team that’s brand and history of success outweighs its FCS designation.


If they believe now is the time to join FBS because of the change in format, I think they’d be an immediate favorite. I also think once this CFP change happens all the G5 conferences will close the doors to joining, so now is the time to jump.
They do fit the bill, but it would require them to either significantly increase the seating in the FargoDome, currently at 19k, or build a new facility.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by Yosef10 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:19 pm

APPdiesel wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:21 pm
pop5app wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:32 pm
Pretty good breakdown! Now the problem will become “ranking”. I suspect 8-3 Iowa State or 8-3 Auburn will be “ranked” ahead of most if not all G 5s regardless of record. Perhaps a team or 2 from the AAC might sneak in ahead. Still a beauty contest with polls! Get rid of them!
Come on you can’t be serious. We’ve got a clearly defined path to the playoff and now you have a problem with rankings (I assume in regards to an at large)?
When you say “we” have a clearly defined path, who is this we? Unless App finishes undefeated with P5 wins and the AAC Champ has 2-3 regular season losses then I’m not at all sure there’s a clearly defined path, don’t have to look back further than 2019 to see that’s the case.

Also, why shouldn’t we have a problem with rankings? Let’s use 2020 as an example. You really think if the 12 team format is in place the committee doesn’t rank USC ahead of Coastal? I’m in favor of 12 teams getting in but I think non-AAC G5 fans are a bit too optimistic on how it will play out.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by Yosef10 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:26 pm

AppSt94 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:31 pm
ah59396 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:02 pm
AAC dark horse may be NDSU.

They have not wanted to move up previously due to the belief that you can’t win a Natty as a G5, which was/is true.

They are arguably a state flagship, carry a strong brand and actually bring good basketball, reaching the tourney 4x since 2009.

Fargo is certainly no Houston but they are an R2 designated university, something else the AAC looks for.

I’m also of the belief that they are the ONLY FCS team that’s brand and history of success outweighs its FCS designation.


If they believe now is the time to join FBS because of the change in format, I think they’d be an immediate favorite. I also think once this CFP change happens all the G5 conferences will close the doors to joining, so now is the time to jump.
They do fit the bill, but it would require them to either significantly increase the seating in the FargoDome, currently at 19k, or build a new facility.
If i have this wrong then pardon me, but aren’t you “expense and budget” guy? How can an FCS school in North Dakota handle the jump from FCS to the AAC but App can’t handle it from SBC to AAC? NDSU has a budget over $10M less than App.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by AppWyo » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:12 pm

Until you win your conference you are in the playoffs, all these discussions are moot points. That is the only fair and consistent way to work the playoffs. If you cannot win your conference you should not be there plain and simple. The biggest thing that would do is make conference titles mean that much more. Just like Rick Flair once said, "To be the man, you gotta beat the man."

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by AppGrad78 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:15 pm

Of course we have a path, and a pretty darn good one. Coastal and Cincinnati would’ve gotten in last year if the proposed 12-teamer were in place.

Reminds me of the old joke about two people being chased by a bear. Said one to the other, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.”

We have to win our conference and outrun any four other conference champions.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by Yosef10 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:33 pm

AppGrad78 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:15 pm
Of course we have a path, and a pretty darn good one. Coastal and Cincinnati would’ve gotten in last year if the proposed 12-teamer were in place.

Reminds me of the old joke about two people being chased by a bear. Said one to the other, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.”

We have to win our conference and outrun any four other conference champions.
Coastal may have been ranked 12th to finish the year with a 4 team, about a 99.9% chance they magically finished 13th if it was a 12 team format. This move is to make the rich richer, not to give G5 it’s due.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by NavyApp » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:52 pm

Yosef10 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:33 pm
AppGrad78 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:15 pm
Of course we have a path, and a pretty darn good one. Coastal and Cincinnati would’ve gotten in last year if the proposed 12-teamer were in place.

Reminds me of the old joke about two people being chased by a bear. Said one to the other, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.”

We have to win our conference and outrun any four other conference champions.
Coastal may have been ranked 12th to finish the year with a 4 team, about a 99.9% chance they magically finished 13th if it was a 12 team format. This move is to make the rich richer, not to give G5 it’s due.
Under the purposed 12 team format it is the highest 6 ranked conference champs plus 6 at large. With Oregon winning the Pac-12 championship at 4-3 there is no way they could have jumped Coastal for the 6th highest rated conference champ.
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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by Yosef10 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm

NavyApp wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:52 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:33 pm
AppGrad78 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:15 pm
Of course we have a path, and a pretty darn good one. Coastal and Cincinnati would’ve gotten in last year if the proposed 12-teamer were in place.

Reminds me of the old joke about two people being chased by a bear. Said one to the other, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.”

We have to win our conference and outrun any four other conference champions.
Coastal may have been ranked 12th to finish the year with a 4 team, about a 99.9% chance they magically finished 13th if it was a 12 team format. This move is to make the rich richer, not to give G5 it’s due.
Under the purposed 12 team format it is the highest 6 ranked conference champs plus 6 at large. With Oregon winning the Pac-12 championship at 4-3 there is no way they could have jumped Coastal for the 6th highest rated conference champ.
You have more faith than I my brother. No Pac12 champ will finish 4-3 again. Strength of schedule and record will become the committee’s new favorite metric and you’ll have 1 G5 get in most every year to protect their money. They’re not called the Cartel for nothin.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by NavyApp » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:23 pm

NavyApp wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:52 pm
Yosef10 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:33 pm
AppGrad78 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:15 pm
Of course we have a path, and a pretty darn good one. Coastal and Cincinnati would’ve gotten in last year if the proposed 12-teamer were in place.

Reminds me of the old joke about two people being chased by a bear. Said one to the other, “I don’t have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you.”

We have to win our conference and outrun any four other conference champions.
Coastal may have been ranked 12th to finish the year with a 4 team, about a 99.9% chance they magically finished 13th if it was a 12 team format. This move is to make the rich richer, not to give G5 it’s due.
Under the purposed 12 team format it is the highest 6 ranked conference champs plus 6 at large. With Oregon winning the Pac-12 championship at 4-3 there is no way they could have jumped Coastal for the 6th highest rated conference champ.
I was explaining how Coastal would have been in this year under the purposed 12 team format. And honestly I can see the PAC 12 torpedoing itself again in the future as they are currently the weakest of the P5 leaving the door open for a second G5. Chances are slim but they are still there. Yeah the system is not built for the G5s to gain ground or have huge success but there really are no alternatives other than clenched fist yelling. They don't need us, they know it and we know it.
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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by AppWyo » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:46 pm

What App really needs to do is continue to put the best product on the field regardless of what else happens and the good times will roll our way. The biggest thing to remember, App would not be here today as it is had it never played Michigan. Kudos to Michigan for giving us that chance. That is all I really want is for the playoffs to give us a chance regardless of the conference we are a part. Hopefully that will be a road trip rival conference with teams we know and care about beating, like Marshal, Georgia Southern, Charlotte, East Carolina, Coastal Carolina, Liberty, Georgia State, and A&T. Heck, this conference could even start its own four team playoff for conference champ.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by 23Bison » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:21 pm

ah59396 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:02 pm
AAC dark horse may be NDSU.

They have not wanted to move up previously due to the belief that you can’t win a Natty as a G5, which was/is true.

They are arguably a state flagship, carry a strong brand and actually bring good basketball, reaching the tourney 4x since 2009.

Fargo is certainly no Houston but they are an R2 designated university, something else the AAC looks for.

I’m also of the belief that they are the ONLY FCS team that’s brand and history of success outweighs its FCS designation.


If they believe now is the time to join FBS because of the change in format, I think they’d be an immediate favorite. I also think once this CFP change happens all the G5 conferences will close the doors to joining, so now is the time to jump.
I thank you for bringing up NDSU. A very large part of the Bison fan base has shifted to wanting to move up. We have most of our facilities in place and just raised over $40million during a pandemic year for our new practice facility. The last big piece is a new stadium. The head coach seems to be on board so all we need is the institution itself to get on board also.

One huge hurdle if the decision is to move up is to get that conference invite. I believe the money will more than be there but the invite is crucial. Wish us luck and hopefully something will happen in the near future. The 12 team proposal kind of makes this a time sensitive issue because conference are going to be locked down and we will be stuck in FCS purgatory forever.

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Re: 12 team playoff? All P5 conference champs to be in, 1 G5 Champ, six at large

Unread post by APPdiesel » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:30 pm

Yosef10 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:19 pm
When you say “we” have a clearly defined path, who is this we? Unless App finishes undefeated with P5 wins and the AAC Champ has 2-3 regular season losses then I’m not at all sure there’s a clearly defined path, don’t have to look back further than 2019 to see that’s the case.

Also, why shouldn’t we have a problem with rankings? Let’s use 2020 as an example. You really think if the 12 team format is in place the committee doesn’t rank USC ahead of Coastal? I’m in favor of 12 teams getting in but I think non-AAC G5 fans are a bit too optimistic on how it will play out.
“We” group of 5 teams would have 1 guaranteed spot every year. That’s more than we have now.

“We” Appalachian State have a path…be the best group of 5.

It won’t be easy but I don’t want ANYTHING given to us. The Sunbelt is in the rise. Keep improving. Keep investing. Keep winning. I prefer working hard to earn a a better ranking than moaning and spouting “everybody’s out to get us” conspiracy theories.
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