DIVISION 4?

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ASUMountaineer
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by ASUMountaineer » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:53 pm

JCline0429 wrote:Of course I do, but paying college players would make them professional athletes and college sports professional sports. It would open up the sport to contract negotiations, players' unions and a myriad of other maladies. Like I said, the NFL could produce its own minor league institutions and skip using the colleges for its farm team leagues. I guess the next step would be to pay high school athletes since the coaches get paid and many schools make money off of high school athletics. Of course child labor laws would have to be changed. Just playing the devil's advocate. ;)

As to the athletes having to sit out 3 years. That could be changed or let them find a job at MacDonald's for three years or pay their own way through college like most of the rest of us did. ;)
When did I advocate paying players? No one here has advocated paying players.

I've only pointed out that I believe there is an obvious disconnect between coaches salaries (and school revenue) vs. the free tuition that players receive. While I would like to think that a mostly free education should be enough, how much are those players worth and what does it show that is more important: revenue or the student-athlete? Obviously, most of this is about money, but the whole premise behind college athletics is not about money. I'm not naive enough to realize that that boat has most likely sailed for CFB and MBB, but my points in this thread were not to determine a way to usher in a change, but simply to point out the disconnect.

I do appreciate someone playing devil's advocate as it lets folks drive through their thoughts. I don't have an answer to the question about how to compensate players for the amount of revenue they produce for a school, but I do acknowledge that it is a valid question in this day and age.
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by bcoach » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:08 pm

The real winners are the coaches at the upper level. Scott is not going to get rich and ASU is not making money. In reality our players are doing very well as far as their piece of the pie in comparison to the bigger programs where the coaches are making stupid money. I do not think we should pay players but I also do not think we should be paying coaches a million+ dollars. It is just stupid to pay what some coaches make. One day we will see in collage sports the equivalent of the housing bubble. The money will eventually run dry. It is happening in NASCAR where they thought people would pay the prices for ever. ASU is actually in a very good place and I hope our leadership stays level headed and is very careful about expansion. So far so good.
Just a little side note. Every player on the team made more as a player than Sean did his first year as a coach.

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by ASUMountaineer » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:24 pm

bcoach wrote:The real winners are the coaches at the upper level. Scott is not going to get rich and ASU is not making money. In reality our players are doing very well as far as their piece of the pie in comparison to the bigger programs where the coaches are making stupid money. I do not think we should pay players but I also do not think we should be paying coaches a million+ dollars. It is just stupid to pay what some coaches make. One day we will see in collage sports the equivalent of the housing bubble. The money will eventually run dry. It is happening in NASCAR where they thought people would pay the prices for ever. ASU is actually in a very good place and I hope our leadership stays level headed and is very careful about expansion. So far so good.
Just a little side note. Every player on the team made more as a player than Sean did his first year as a coach.
This.

I should clarify my previous posts that they were in reference to the P5 conferences, as they are the ones talking about another round of reclassification. The G5 and lowers subdivisions/divisions really don't apply.

Great post. :!:
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by huskie3 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:39 pm

http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?w=1d3re& ... ts-event31

Big 12 commissioner advocating different governing structure for sports, ie football and the Olympic sports. I see this as a better solution than separation. Remember the football coches forming their own association back in the 80's to address issues concerning them and not allowing field hockey (just an example) to vote on things not concerning them.
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by AppSt94 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:51 pm

ASUMountaineer wrote:
AppSt94 wrote:
ASUMountaineer wrote:
AppSt94 wrote:While i understand your point, I do disagree with one premise. The players are getting a tremendous "opportunity" for a large ROI. These young men,and women, receive upwards of $100,000.00 in free education. Not to mention food, clothing and the resources to make them better at their sport. They are given tutors to assist them in their academic endeavours. When you sign that letter of intent, you are choosing to get your foot in the door of a better paying job after graduating from college versus taking an hourly wage, low end, slow upward mobility job after high school. The problem is that these kids, football and basketball players in particular, look at a signed NLI as a stepping stone to the pros and not what it truly represents. An opportunity to improve yourself.
I'll agree with your point, but the players' "large ROI" is no where near the sizable ROI the administrators and coaches are getting--and theirs is a contract/salary, not an "opportunity." The coaches also get food, clothing, and resources (large salaries, incentives, bonuses, contract negotiations, and endorsements). Again, I have not advocated to pay players, but it's asinine at worst and naive at best to act like the players aren't the ones making everyone but the players rich.

The answer isn't to throw more money at the players. It's to recognize that there is a money problem in college athletics, and it lies with the NCAA, member conferences and schools, and coaches.
I understand that you are not advocating paying players. You point was not lost on me and I apologize if it appeared that I glanced over it. To not debate you, but to make appoint to the escalating salaries. No one is making you play football. If a player feels exploited, then they are free to pursue other opportunities.
I see what you're saying. But, we can't act like the "opportunity" given to these players is the equivalent of what they make the coaches.

So with that logic, and there is nothing wrong with what your saying. But if the player performance is a catalyst to coaches salaries then would it be safe to say that poor player performance can cost a coach his job? Granted, unemployment with a six or seven figure buyout makes it easier to struggle. So should a coach get a piece of a player's pay from an NFL contract since that contract was offered due to the mastering of skills taught by that coach?[/quote]

How is that even a reasonable question? The coach was paid, in most cases very well, to assist the player in mastering those skills. That was his job, and he negotiated a contract to perform said duties.

Again, you talked about the "opportunities" being given to players as if it is somehow equal to the salaries, benefits, clothes, cars, phones, endorsements, and bonuses received by the coaches. I just can't buy that.

I think we all can agree that the system is flawed and needs to be changed. I do not think simply paying players is the answer. However, to refuse to recognize the disconnect is being dismissive of reality. College football has become a big business, and the players are reaping by far the least amount of rewards. I am simply suggesting that we begin by recognizing that a free tuition, while a great opportunity, is not the same as hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary, benefits, etc.[/quote]

I do agree that their are flaws in the system. We are going to have to agree to disagree on the rest. I understand your position and I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do. I just don't share the same opinion. I enjoyed the debate.
Last edited by AppSt94 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by fjblair » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:01 pm

Big time college football is starting to lose it's luster for me. Is it even about the colleges anymore or about who spends the most money and gets the best recruits? Money(ESPN) is ruining the game. I hope it blows up in their face. Blow it up and start over.

Someone mentioned $800k for a bowl director, how is this possible? What do they do to earn that money for one game a year between teams that are predetermined?

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by TheMoody1 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:07 pm

fjblair wrote:Someone mentioned $800k for a bowl director, how is this possible? What do they do to earn that money for one game a year between teams that are predetermined?
It is their cut of the TV and sponsorship money. Great gig if you can get it. :x

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by Saint3333 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:10 pm

Scott may be rich in many people's eyes.

If I could do what I love everyday and get paid a base of $150k I'd feel "rich".

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by asu7 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:59 am

I really thought this might happen until I started thinking about basketball. I don't think they want to move their other sports. Well the NCAA should force them to thus taking them out of March Madness and putting them into a de-facto NBA developmental league. Well a ton of the P5 schools that have successful basketball programs won't be for this. This would eliminate them playing in the tourney which brings in lots of money.

FBS and the rest of D1 would play for NCAA championships while the P5 would do their own thing. I just don't see it getting off the ground. The lawyers will get involved and we thought the hanging chad thing was big ... well this would be epic. A lot would have to happen and I am not so sure that the P5 schools will sacrifice basketball for it even though football pays a lot of the bills.
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by MAD Doctor » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:52 am

I agree ASU7. If they have such little regard for the NCAA and other schools, why should they be allowed to pick and choose the sports in which they will participate?
Who do they think they are... Notre Dame? :D

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by moehler » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:43 am

that will be really interesting to see what the NCAA does if the bcs schools try and "pick and choose" what athletic programs stay in the NCAA. First, the BCS schools, led by the Big Ten, had for years, threaten and bullied the NCAA that they would take their ball and go home if they didn't get their way, and for the most part, it has worked. Well, now, the BCS schools are telling the world, without, I assume sitting down and talking to the NCAA that they are going to probably leave, but only in football??!!! Really? As the NCAA your going to accept that, take hundred of millions of dollars with them, BUT, share in the revenue with the NCAA in all other sports??? I know it would be extremely painful for the NCAA watching march madness move with the BCS schools, but, its time to take a stand, make them take everything or nothing, they have talked a big game for years now, of how they could better run collage sports, well, lets find out, take the training wheels off and lets see what they can do, personally I hope they crash and burn, and have to come back to the NCAA with their tails between their legs, probably not going happen, but we can hope.

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by Dmanuhone » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:51 am

Southern Miss coaches thoughts. I like this guy.

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/ ... -76787464/
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by Maddog1956 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:57 am

Dmanuhone wrote:Southern Miss coaches thoughts. I like this guy.

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/ ... -76787464/
I think he hit the nail on the head! I think that if P5 only played each other, many of the people that watch their games would try up. The only reason a CUSA fan watches a ACC game for example is to imagine how their team would do against them or to see them lose.

Let's face it, most people don't watch college to see the best football (I know go ahead and hate me), I at least watch it to see how APP fits in (or how it relates to APP) or because nothing else is on. If the break did happen and I had the choice between watching a ACC game or a Sunbelt (or other Co5) game I would watch the Co5 game no question.
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by huskie3 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:32 am

Dmanuhone wrote:Southern Miss coaches thoughts. I like this guy.

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/ ... -76787464/
Is this the same guy that was at ga southern?
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by hapapp » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:08 am

I believe it is his brother. The other Monken is still at Ga Southern.

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by Dmanuhone » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:05 pm

This makes me feel a little better.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/colleg ... =cf_t11_a0
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by ASUGoose » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:58 pm

I don't necessarily think that this split is only going to apply to the Power 5 conferences. I think the biggest issue is that the Power 5 conferences don't like the fact that FCS, Division II and III schools have just as much say in the NCAA process as they do. I could see the NCAA agreeing to a different set of rules and regulations for FBS and all others who are non-FBS.

I just don't see the Power 5 conferences beating up each other week in and week out without including games against the GO5 conferences (MWC, MAC, Sun Belt, American, etc.)

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by Kgfish » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:00 pm

bcoach wrote:
ASU-FTW wrote:Why don't these guys just form a new division within the NCAA? I don't see the need to do a full break.
They don't want to be regulated by the NCAA and they don't want to share revenue.
From all I've read it is more about not allowing FCS and non scholarship D-1 football programs having a say in issues should only pertain to them. Conversely, FBS schools shouldn't have any input in what FCS schools want to do. Anyone who argues the Power 5 Conferences and FCS should be governed under the same rules is not being realistic. Two totally different worlds.
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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by Saint3333 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:03 pm

I'd say the P5 and G5 conferences are different worlds as well. There really should be four levels of Div 1. P5, G5 adding about 20 FCS programs, all only football playing schools, and then non-football schools.

Scholarship and attendance min.:

85 - 40k
73 - 12k
40 - no attendance min.

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Re: DIVISION 4?

Unread post by JCline0429 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:08 pm

Saint3333 wrote:I'd say the P5 and G5 conferences are different worlds as well. There really should be four levels of Div 1. P5, G5 adding about 20 FCS programs, all only football playing schools, and then non-football schools.

Scholarship and attendance min.:

85 - 40k
73 - 12k
40 - no attendance min.

What do you call attendance? Tickets sold? People in seats? Do you move teams down if they have a bad year? Or do you take a multi-year average?
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