Doug Gillin?

[ah59396]

I recall Jerry feeling the heat in 2004 and responding by changing up offensive philosophy. Three Nattys quickly followed. Maybe Clark should take this page out of Jerry's book.

I mean, sure. That’d be great if “changing philosophy” suddenly spurred immense success again.

Reality is many more times than not, things will go worse than before you changed them.

Not picking on you here, but I feel like a lot of people just want change for the sake of it. Change - without considering that change of staff, or change of philosophy, could be even more detrimental long term.

Consider the possibility that there may be value in consistency, even when things aren’t working the way we’d like them to.

[appgrad95&97]

I have understand your point but this was going to be a rebuild year no matter how you cut it. We had a lot of veteran leadership to replace. If you were told that by CSC at the first of the year that we would likely be 5-4 through 9 games due to the rebuild, would that have lessened the sting?

There are issues. I consider myself a supporter of Clark, but acknowledge that there are some things that probably need to change within him to become a better head coach. Do I believe that he “could” be the man for the job? Yes. Does he have room for improvement? Most definitely. Is he in over his head? I don’t think so. Is he stubborn? Without question.

What about this question? Is he too stubborn or too weak to address a more and more obvious issue with the defensive "wing" of his program? Can he put the future/best interests of the App State Football program ahead of personal friendships? Can he make gut-wrenching leadership decisions?

I realize that you are going to disagree with this, but the issues with the defense are fixed with talent not coaching. Our secondary is a mess with one position that is killing us right now and there isn’t an easy fix to it.

If you are talking about the current DC, I am curious to know exactly what is your issue with him? The defense, statistically speaking, is on par with the 2021 version that had 3 future NFL caliber players. Personally, I see no justifiable reason part ways with DJ, so enlighten me on what I am not seeing.

Let’s see… WKU, unc, JMU meltdown, 3rd down defense has got to be worse than ever, explosive plays are worse than ever, the stats are inflated by playing 2 bad FCS teams.

So you are expecting zero drop off in talent from top to bottom. We have a lot of issues that can be attributed to both misses in recruiting, (only one high school CB signee since 2018 is currently on this roster) and misses on talent due to guys not wanting to sit behind guys that are established starters with multiple years of eligibility left. Haven’t looked up 3rd down defense, but explosive plays are in large part due to poor angles taken by guys that are learning to play the position at the FBS level.That gets cleaned up in time and reps. I understand your frustration, but the coaches are responsible for getting guys in the right spots to make plays. They can’t make the plays for them.

I'm not going to pretend for a second that I know anything about defensive schemes. To me, it looks like a big problem with our defense is we just don't fundamentally tackle well. That seems coachable.

I would also point out that you can be a pretty good college football team with a very suspect defense these days. Like the one about 130 miles west of Boone.

[BallantyneApp]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

[pop5app]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

Finally some good info. How can we get more money?

[appgrad95&97]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

From appchicago on another thread:

A look at the US News database tells me that the coaches of the following teams make more than Clark: Rice, WKU, Coastal, MTSU, Nevada, Toledo, Utah State, UConn, Fresno State, Colorado State, Wyoming, Liberty, etc. ECU pays 2.5 times what we do. So do UTSA and USF.

[AppStateNews]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

[hapapp]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

Though Virginia law requires that now that they are FBS they has to be reduced to, I believe 55%.

[AppStateNews]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

Though Virginia law requires that now that they are FBS they has to be reduced to, I believe 55%.

While true, their funding from the state also goes up by 15% so it's a moot point.

[hapapp]

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

Though Virginia law requires that now that they are FBS they has to be reduced to, I believe 55%.

While true, their funding from the state also goes up by 15% so it's a moot point.

Not sure I follow.

[AppStateNews]

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

Though Virginia law requires that now that they are FBS they has to be reduced to, I believe 55%.

While true, their funding from the state also goes up by 15% so it's a moot point.

Not sure I follow.

Their student fees drop by about 15% because of the move to FBS. But, the state essentially provides the difference with state funding.

Once they moved to FBS, they got more guaranteed athletic specific money in the state budget. That's the reason they had to wait on the state Senate to approve before announcing the move officially.

[bcoach]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

We don’t have a huge enrollment that generates tons of student fees or school $$$.

For example Houston gets $50MM in fees and school support
Cincy and ucf are in the 30-35MM range. Hell even UNCC is at $30MM subsidized.

We’re at $19MM. We have an $11MM gap to make up just to get the same $$$ as those programs

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

I finally agree with a NC law that has anything to do with the university system. Student fees should not be increased. We who enjoy this entertainment should be paying for it. We don't. I can't remember the % of alum who contribute to the University in any way and it was embarrassing.

[AppSt94]

I'm going to post this again. Its from 2019. Gillin hired Cark and for some reason extended him. I had questions back then about the hire. Clark was handed a top 20 team, and three years later we aren't close to that.

I have understand your point but this was going to be a rebuild year no matter how you cut it. We had a lot of veteran leadership to replace. If you were told that by CSC at the first of the year that we would likely be 5-4 through 9 games due to the rebuild, would that have lessened the sting?

There are issues. I consider myself a supporter of Clark, but acknowledge that there are some things that probably need to change within him to become a better head coach. Do I believe that he “could” be the man for the job? Yes. Does he have room for improvement? Most definitely. Is he in over his head? I don’t think so. Is he stubborn? Without question.

What about this question? Is he too stubborn or too weak to address a more and more obvious issue with the defensive "wing" of his program? Can he put the future/best interests of the App State Football program ahead of personal friendships? Can he make gut-wrenching leadership decisions?

I realize that you are going to disagree with this, but the issues with the defense are fixed with talent not coaching. Our secondary is a mess with one position that is killing us right now and there isn’t an easy fix to it.

If you are talking about the current DC, I am curious to know exactly what is your issue with him? The defense, statistically speaking, is on par with the 2021 version that had 3 future NFL caliber players. Personally, I see no justifiable reason part ways with DJ, so enlighten me on what I am not seeing.

Let’s see… WKU, unc, JMU meltdown, 3rd down defense has got to be worse than ever, explosive plays are worse than ever, the stats are inflated by playing 2 bad FCS teams.

The third down % rate is the same this year as it was last year. 38%.

[bcoach]

We also get among, if not the, least amount of support from the state/university in the G5. We also have a state law that limits student fees.

It's really been a miracle to do that we have done with as small of a budget as we have. To put it in perspective, when JMU joined, they had the biggest budget in Sun Belt. They also have 70% of their budget generated by student fees.

Though Virginia law requires that now that they are FBS they has to be reduced to, I believe 55%.

While true, their funding from the state also goes up by 15% so it's a moot point.

Not sure I follow.

Their student fees drop by about 15% because of the move to FBS. But, the state essentially provides the difference with state funding.

Once they moved to FBS, they got more guaranteed athletic specific money in the state budget. That's the reason they had to wait on the state Senate to approve before announcing the move officially.

Thanks for letting me know I am helping to pay for their football team. Just the news I needed to hear.

[yosef69]

I have understand your point but this was going to be a rebuild year no matter how you cut it. We had a lot of veteran leadership to replace. If you were told that by CSC at the first of the year that we would likely be 5-4 through 9 games due to the rebuild, would that have lessened the sting?

There are issues. I consider myself a supporter of Clark, but acknowledge that there are some things that probably need to change within him to become a better head coach. Do I believe that he “could” be the man for the job? Yes. Does he have room for improvement? Most definitely. Is he in over his head? I don’t think so. Is he stubborn? Without question.

What about this question? Is he too stubborn or too weak to address a more and more obvious issue with the defensive "wing" of his program? Can he put the future/best interests of the App State Football program ahead of personal friendships? Can he make gut-wrenching leadership decisions?

I realize that you are going to disagree with this, but the issues with the defense are fixed with talent not coaching. Our secondary is a mess with one position that is killing us right now and there isn’t an easy fix to it.

If you are talking about the current DC, I am curious to know exactly what is your issue with him? The defense, statistically speaking, is on par with the 2021 version that had 3 future NFL caliber players. Personally, I see no justifiable reason part ways with DJ, so enlighten me on what I am not seeing.

Let’s see… WKU, unc, JMU meltdown, 3rd down defense has got to be worse than ever, explosive plays are worse than ever, the stats are inflated by playing 2 bad FCS teams.

So you are expecting zero drop off in talent from top to bottom. We have a lot of issues that can be attributed to both misses in recruiting, (only one high school CB signee since 2018 is currently on this roster) and misses on talent due to guys not wanting to sit behind guys that are established starters with multiple years of eligibility left. Haven’t looked up 3rd down defense, but explosive plays are in large part due to poor angles taken by guys that are learning to play the position at the FBS level.That gets cleaned up in time and reps. I understand your frustration, but the coaches are responsible for getting guys in the right spots to make plays. They can’t make the plays for them.

They also coach guys to make plays. When it’s the 9th game and they’re not making plays… it’s a pattern.

[appstate77]

I recall Jerry feeling the heat in 2004 and responding by changing up offensive philosophy. Three Nattys quickly followed. Maybe Clark should take this page out of Jerry's book.

I mean, sure. That’d be great if “changing philosophy” suddenly spurred immense success again.

Reality is many more times than not, things will go worse than before you changed them.

Not picking on you here, but I feel like a lot of people just want change for the sake of it. Change - without considering that change of staff, or change of philosophy, could be even more detrimental long term.

Consider the possibility that there may be value in consistency, even when things aren’t working the way we’d like them to.

I give up with this bunch. Im out.

[AppSt94]

What about this question? Is he too stubborn or too weak to address a more and more obvious issue with the defensive "wing" of his program? Can he put the future/best interests of the App State Football program ahead of personal friendships? Can he make gut-wrenching leadership decisions?

I realize that you are going to disagree with this, but the issues with the defense are fixed with talent not coaching. Our secondary is a mess with one position that is killing us right now and there isn’t an easy fix to it.

If you are talking about the current DC, I am curious to know exactly what is your issue with him? The defense, statistically speaking, is on par with the 2021 version that had 3 future NFL caliber players. Personally, I see no justifiable reason part ways with DJ, so enlighten me on what I am not seeing.

Let’s see… WKU, unc, JMU meltdown, 3rd down defense has got to be worse than ever, explosive plays are worse than ever, the stats are inflated by playing 2 bad FCS teams.

So you are expecting zero drop off in talent from top to bottom. We have a lot of issues that can be attributed to both misses in recruiting, (only one high school CB signee since 2018 is currently on this roster) and misses on talent due to guys not wanting to sit behind guys that are established starters with multiple years of eligibility left. Haven’t looked up 3rd down defense, but explosive plays are in large part due to poor angles taken by guys that are learning to play the position at the FBS level.That gets cleaned up in time and reps. I understand your frustration, but the coaches are responsible for getting guys in the right spots to make plays. They can’t make the plays for them.

They also coach guys to make plays. When it’s the 9th game and they’re not making plays… it’s a pattern.

And if you can’t recognize that it can be talent and are laying all on coaches then there isn’t much point in rationalizing with you.

[AppStFan1]

I'm going to post this again. Its from 2019. Gillin hired Cark and for some reason extended him. I had questions back then about the hire. Clark was handed a top 20 team, and three years later we aren't close to that.

I have understand your point but this was going to be a rebuild year no matter how you cut it. We had a lot of veteran leadership to replace. If you were told that by CSC at the first of the year that we would likely be 5-4 through 9 games due to the rebuild, would that have lessened the sting?

There are issues. I consider myself a supporter of Clark, but acknowledge that there are some things that probably need to change within him to become a better head coach. Do I believe that he “could” be the man for the job? Yes. Does he have room for improvement? Most definitely. Is he in over his head? I don’t think so. Is he stubborn? Without question.

It should not have been a total rebuild. It should have been a slight drop off and then by 2024 be back to title contention. I picked us 8-4 at beginning of season because of what you said but no way I thought we are 5-4 now and appearing to end up 6-6 without a bowl. I thought 7-5 worst case but 6-6 or 5-7 is possible now. There is no way we should have had that big of a drop off.

I think Shawn can turn it around but the next 45 days or so are critical to that. He needs to finish strong, get to a bowl, win it, and make some coaching changes. We will see how it goes.

So, big IF, but if we wind up winning our last three games (not predicting we will) would you be satisfied at 8-4?

I would not be happy with the fact we were eliminated from title contention so early, assuming CCU and ODU don't fall apart, but I would be happy with the finish for sure. I want to see Shawn back in 2024 to see how he does with the team that should be a SBC Champion or top contender. If we go 6-6 or 5-7 this year and don't make a bowl next year I would then support a full change. I just hope he makes the right decisions at the end of this month with his staff to give us a better chance so we don't miss a bowl game next year either way.

[AppStFan1]

We have no money. You guys realize this, right? Saban, Jimbo, those guys aren't coming. Why, because we can't pay them. We could go for flashier hires and like Drink they will leave after a year. That's because we don't have cash. Those seasoned assistants can't overcome the constant turnover at HC because we don't have seasoned assistants. Why not, because we can't afford to pay them. Name the guy that's going to come and stay who has experience and success. Hint - he has a couple more $00's at the end of his name than we can afford. SC is solid. JM wasn't a genius either but after a few years he managed to do pretty special stuff. Give him a normal season or 2 and let's see what he does.

jeez.

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

Because majority of the committed fan base free loads and doesn't donate. This is the first year ever we've been able to fully fund all scholarships through Yosef Club.

Are you telling me that we have less money than southern? Ccu? Marshall?

Yes.

I will be curious to see the money for CCU when Moglia is gone. When that dries up I have to think they will struggle some. They did not have the money to even move up until he came along.

Aren't we like 4th in the Sun Belt in overall athletic budget? A lot of people think App is at the top but we are not.

[AppStateNews]

Honestly, why not? Why don't we have more money? We have a committed fanbase, we have very top G5 attendance. Why can't we pay a head coach 2M a year?

Because majority of the committed fan base free loads and doesn't donate. This is the first year ever we've been able to fully fund all scholarships through Yosef Club.

Are you telling me that we have less money than southern? Ccu? Marshall?

Yes.

I will be curious to see the money for CCU when Moglia is gone. When that dries up I have to think they will struggle some. They did not have the money to even move up until he came along.

Aren't we like 4th in the Sun Belt in overall athletic budget? A lot of people think App is at the top but we are not.

We're damn near the bottom. Pretty sure just ULM has a smaller budget.

Coastal football gets a little more than $25 million from the state/school. Comparatively, we get a little more than $5 million. This is due to the move up.

Their donations are considerably less than ours. We get right around $7 million. They get about $1 million. Their total football budget is around 14 million while ours is at 10 million..

[appdaze]

We are actually tied for third in the conference. We have grown 5% since 2016. Our expenses have grown 6%. We almost break even. We are losing about 100k-200k a year.


https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs/sunbelt



https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs/sunb ... university

If you are willing to sift through the info, this site goes back to 2005 with athletic financial data for most universities out there. Really good info.