The cancer on this program is

[mike87]

If overhyping expectations was ground for dismissal Mack Brown would be in a retirement home. They sold out season tickets and most of the games. Mission accomplished on that front.

[AppContrarian]

Maybe the answer to this question is that the cancer is the arrogance and entitlement of many within our fan base who have been so spoiled by our many years of success. Ask programs like Notre Dame, Florida State, Texas and other college football giants how hard sustaining success is.

We all want to win, but the expectation of "conference title/undefeated season or bust" makes consistently achieving those goals nearly impossible within the landscape of college football in 2024.

[Saint3333]

Maybe the answer to this question is that the cancer is the arrogance and entitlement of many within our fan base who have been so spoiled by our many years of success. Ask programs like Notre Dame, Florida State, Texas and other college football giants how hard sustaining success is.

We all want to win, but the expectation of "conference title/undefeated season or bust" makes consistently achieving those goals nearly impossible within the landscape of college football in 2024.

I'm going to need an IP check for this gem here.

Using a quote from the HC to gaslight the fanbase and misuse the term consistently when never could have been applied is a great attempt to enter the conversation. Well played.

[BallantyneApp]

Maybe the answer to this question is that the cancer is the arrogance and entitlement of many within our fan base who have been so spoiled by our many years of success. Ask programs like Notre Dame, Florida State, Texas and other college football giants how hard sustaining success is.

We all want to win, but the expectation of "conference title/undefeated season or bust" makes consistently achieving those goals nearly impossible within the landscape of college football in 2024.

theres a mountain of difference between "conference title or best" and losing to a conference mate 48-14 at home.

Why can't there be a middle ground like "we gave this coach 5 years, he brought a lot of good but also a lot of bad, and we're currently trending downward with no real hope for a better year next year".

This was already gone over but this year is a decision year, we either have to extend Clark or fire him. If we kick the can out to next year we're dooming the program for at least another 2 years as everyone is going to know hes a lame duck coach. No recruiting, anyone with an option in the TP is going to take it.

Are you extending Clark after starting 0-3 in Conference and having the worst defeat of the past 11 years? If the answer is no then unfortunately we have to fire him.

[WVAPPeer]

Thank god the gatekeeper is back to tell us how we should feel about our team as fans. I was struggling.

That’s it…Clark should definitely stay because WV thinks he’s a nice guy with a family, and the consistent, downward trend of the football program should be ignored because we beat an over-rated TAMU team 2 years ago!

Come on Beau - I know you can comprehend what I wrote so tell me where I said this in the previous post. I put the facts there not my opinion and asked who could make the argument to fire Coach Clark with anything other than W-L? - Of course it's important but what else because I just don't see an impartial knowledgeable football man or woman who would say he needs to go because of his record. Some say the team is on a downward trend - OK, do you not take in the fact that APP played in the championship game last year - and of course those who argue we were there only because JMU couldn't fail to point out that we beat JMU on their own field and knocked them out of the undefeated ranks.
I am still waiting on someone to make an unbiased argument based on fact not opinion why Coach Clark should be fired.

[311neers]

Thank god the gatekeeper is back to tell us how we should feel about our team as fans. I was struggling.

That’s it…Clark should definitely stay because WV thinks he’s a nice guy with a family, and the consistent, downward trend of the football program should be ignored because we beat an over-rated TAMU team 2 years ago!

Come on Beau - I know you can comprehend what I wrote so tell me where I said this in the previous post. I put the facts there not my opinion and asked who could make the argument to fire Coach Clark with anything other than W-L? - Of course it's important but what else because I just don't see an impartial knowledgeable football man or woman who would say he needs to go because of his record. Some say the team is on a downward trend - OK, do you not take in the fact that APP played in the championship game last year - and of course those who argue we were there only because JMU couldn't fail to point out that we beat JMU on their own field and knocked them out of the undefeated ranks.
I am still waiting on someone to make an unbiased argument based on fact not opinion why Coach Clark should be fired.

You don't need any more reason than wins and losses to fire a coach. But since you asked and are hell bent on getting an answer I'll shoot my shot.

Anyone else notice an uptick in fighting/personal fouls/unsportsmanlike penalties and ejections this year from us?

Of course we had the fight during practice right before the season leaving 1 suspended.
Just last week against UL, our "star" safety punched a UL guy during a kickoff but luckily the refs missed it.

Our guys just don't seemed disciplined and don't keep their cool when down. And these aren't new portal guys committing the fighting and personal fouls so you can't blame it on the portal. These are high school recruits/long time portal guys that know "the tradition" of App State Football committing boneheaded penalties and fighting.

[WVAPPeer]

Thank god the gatekeeper is back to tell us how we should feel about our team as fans. I was struggling.

That’s it…Clark should definitely stay because WV thinks he’s a nice guy with a family, and the consistent, downward trend of the football program should be ignored because we beat an over-rated TAMU team 2 years ago!

Come on Beau - I know you can comprehend what I wrote so tell me where I said this in the previous post. I put the facts there not my opinion and asked who could make the argument to fire Coach Clark with anything other than W-L? - Of course it's important but what else because I just don't see an impartial knowledgeable football man or woman who would say he needs to go because of his record. Some say the team is on a downward trend - OK, do you not take in the fact that APP played in the championship game last year - and of course those who argue we were there only because JMU couldn't fail to point out that we beat JMU on their own field and knocked them out of the undefeated ranks.
I am still waiting on someone to make an unbiased argument based on fact not opinion why Coach Clark should be fired.

You don't need any more reason than wins and losses to fire a coach. But since you asked and are hell bent on getting an answer I'll shoot my shot.

Anyone else notice an uptick in fighting/personal fouls/unsportsmanlike penalties and ejections this year from us?

Of course we had the fight during practice right before the season leaving 1 suspended.
Just last week against UL, our "star" safety punched a UL guy during a kickoff but luckily the refs missed it.

Our guys just don't seemed disciplined and don't keep their cool when down. And these aren't new portal guys committing the fighting and personal fouls so you can't blame it on the portal. These are high school recruits/long time portal guys that know "the tradition" of App State Football committing boneheaded penalties and fighting.

OK - I can absolutely agree that is might be an issue - not a firing issue - but one that must be addressed.
I have ZERO tolerance for these kinds of action - NONE!!! - I also would not stand for personal showboating especially when you are getting your ass beat and you brake up a pass or make a tackle and dance around like you just won the game - HATE IT

[BeauFoster]

Here’s the reason I’m saying he should no longer be our football coach come December:

Overall win percentage by season:
2020: .750 (1 win over FCS opponent)
2021: .714 (1 win over FCS opponent)
2022: .500 (2 wins over FCS opponents)
2023: .643 (1 win over FCS opponent)
2024: .333 (incomplete, but not looking good)


Conference win percentage:
2020: .750
2021: .875
2022: .375
2023: .750
2024: .000 (incomplete)

So overall record is showing a downward trend year to year, and conference is at best a wash.


Our year to year offensive rankings continues to slide from 2020 to 2023 (and is not good this season, either). Team defensive rankings is markedly worse from 2020 to 2023.


We have been division champs 1 time since 2020, winning no championships. We have appeared 3 bowl games (of 4 possible), including losing our first one ever (to a massive blowout). We have experienced multiple losses to conference mates by multiple scores. We have been ranked for one week in total.


None of these show the program getting stronger, they in fact show it getting worse than what it was in 2019. That’s why, based on the current season, I believe he should no longer be the head coach at season’s conclusion.

[Stonewall]

We don’t block and tackle well and we turn the ball over with frequency. Other than that we are fine.

[311neers]

Here’s the reason I’m saying he should no longer be our football coach come December:

Overall win percentage by season:
2020: .750 (1 win over FCS opponent)
2021: .714 (1 win over FCS opponent)
2022: .500 (2 wins over FCS opponents)
2023: .643 (1 win over FCS opponent)
2024: .333 (incomplete, but not looking good)


Conference win percentage:
2020: .750
2021: .875
2022: .375
2023: .750
2024: .000 (incomplete)

So overall record is showing a downward trend year to year, and conference is at best a wash.


Our year to year offensive rankings continues to slide from 2020 to 2023 (and is not good this season, either). Team defensive rankings is markedly worse from 2020 to 2023.


We have been division champs 1 time since 2020, winning no championships. We have appeared 3 bowl games (of 4 possible), including losing our first one ever (to a massive blowout). We have experienced multiple losses to conference mates by multiple scores. We have been ranked for one week in total.


None of these show the program getting stronger, they in fact show it getting worse than what it was in 2019. That’s why, based on the current season, I believe he should no longer be the head coach at season’s conclusion.

On top of not improving as a coach in really any situational facet of the game. Time management still an issue. Lack of tackling. Lack of concentration with undisciplined
penalties. The only real thing I’ve noticed that he’s improved at is doing something other than 3rd and 2/4th and 2 up the middle and that took about 4 years to figure out. Just not good all around which reflects with the mediocre records (without the FCS wins).

[BeauFoster]

Some more stats to support my analytical point for relieving Coach Clark of his duties at the end of the season:

First quarter scoring (national rank):
2024: .6/gm (131)
2023: 4.6/gm (83)
2022: 4.4/gm (91)
2021: 8.5/gm (13)
2020: 9.2/gm (19)

Points per game scored (national rank):
2024: 23.2 (85)
2023: 32.3 (26)
2022: 32.8 (26)
2021: 33.8 (22)
2020: 32.2 (36)

Points per game given up (national rank):
2024: 43.8 (128)
2023: 27.2 (68)
2022: 31.8 (106)
2021: 23.1 (33)
2020: 19.9 (17)

Turnover margin (national rank):
2024: -2 (133)
2023: 0 (t59)
2022: +0.7 (14)
2021: -.3 (t88)
2020: +.1 (55)

Penalties per game (national rank):
2024: 7.4/gm (101)
2023: 4.5/gm (20)
2022: 5.9 (61)
2021: 6.1 (66)
2020: 7.5 (107)

Penalty yards per game (national rank)
2024: 73.4 (123)
2023: 42.1 (25)
2022: 55.4 (76)
2021: 54.8 (75)
2020: 73.4 (123)

Other than offensive performance, we’re at best a mid-pack team. Most categories show regression year over year. These aren’t cherry picked stats, either. These are the stats that tend to indicate whether a team is “good” or not, and show things like discipline (penalties) and strategy (first quarter points), which can be directly attributed to a coaching staff.

I’m sick looking at these numbers. They show a program that was once the class of G5 and is now just a middle of the road also ran. It’s unacceptable for a program with our history.

[Pikapp79]

If overhyping expectations was ground for dismissal Mack Brown would be in a retirement home. They sold out season tickets and most of the games. Mission accomplished on that front.

Which is what’s it’s all about. Make the dough and kick the can another year.

[Bootsy]

Thanks for sharing these, Beau. Not easy to see but definitely helpful. It’s hard to argue with trends.

[BeauFoster]

Now lets look at some performance metrics:

Record against FBS opponents:
2024: N/A (currently 1-4)
2023: 8-5
2022: 4-6
2021: 9-4
2020: 8-3

Records against bowl-eligible opponents:
2024: N/A (not known yet, but at least 0-1 - Clemson)
2023: 5-5 (1 loss to a bowl-eligible team who ended the season with a losing record)
2022: 3-5 (1 loss to a team who ended the season with a losing record)
2021: 4-4
2020: 3-3

Number of defeats by 10 or more points:
2024: 5 (out of 6 games played)
2023: 1 (out of 5)
2022: 1 (out of 6)
2021: 2 (out of 4)
2020: 2 (out of 3)

Finish in Sun Belt East:
2024: currently 6th
2023: 2nd
2022: 4th
2021: 1st
2020: 2nd

So what can we glean from this? Looking at our play against bowl eligible teams, we’re 15-17 (excluding this year). I don’t think that’s too good. We finished with a nice looking record in 2023, and we should all be proud of that, but we were .500 against bowl eligible teams. Additionally, we have at least one big loss per season, sometimes more. And finally, we have only won our division once since Clark became head coach, after having won it a lot (re: every damn time since we became eligible and divisions were created).

I’d really appreciate anyone who wants to look at my last 3 posts in this thread, listing objective statistics, and defend this coaching staff and head coach. Please show me how this team is growing/getting better using statistics, as I have. I want coach to succeed. He’s an App State Mountaineer - one of us. Aside from my own personal family and work success, there’s nothing I’d like more than to see him go undefeated and take App State to the playoff. But I just can’t look at these numbers, as well as what I see each Saturday with my own eyes, and see progress.

FYI - because I like to show my work, all stats were taken from either sports-reference.com (for schedule info) or teamrankings.com (for statistics/national ratings).

[Bootsy]

Now lets look at some performance metrics:

Record against FBS opponents:
2024: N/A (currently 1-4)
2023: 8-5
2022: 4-6
2021: 9-4
2020: 8-3

Records against bowl-eligible opponents:
2024: N/A (not known yet, but at least 0-1 - Clemson)
2023: 5-5 (1 loss to a bowl-eligible team who ended the season with a losing record)
2022: 3-5 (1 loss to a team who ended the season with a losing record)
2021: 4-4
2020: 3-3

Number of defeats by 10 or more points:
2024: 5 (out of 6 games played)
2023: 1 (out of 5)
2022: 1 (out of 6)
2021: 2 (out of 4)
2020: 2 (out of 3)

Finish in Sun Belt East:
2024: currently 6th
2023: 2nd
2022: 4th
2021: 1st
2020: 2nd

So what can we glean from this? Looking at our play against bowl eligible teams, we’re 15-17 (excluding this year). I don’t think that’s too good. We finished with a nice looking record in 2023, and we should all be proud of that, but we were .500 against bowl eligible teams. Additionally, we have at least one big loss per season, sometimes more. And finally, we have only won our division once since Clark became head coach, after having won it a lot (re: every damn time since we became eligible and divisions were created).

I’d really appreciate anyone who wants to look at my last 3 posts in this thread, listing objective statistics, and defend this coaching staff and head coach. Please show me how this team is growing/getting better using statistics, as I have. I want coach to succeed. He’s an App State Mountaineer - one of us. Aside from my own personal family and work success, there’s nothing I’d like more than to see him go undefeated and take App State to the playoff. But I just can’t look at these numbers, as well as what I see each Saturday with my own eyes, and see progress.

FYI - because I like to show my work, all stats were taken from either sports-reference.com (for schedule info) or teamrankings.com (for statistics/national ratings).

Again, thank you for the work you invested in these posts. Pulling all of these data points together definitely paints an interesting picture.

[BeauFoster]

On top of not improving as a coach in really any situational facet of the game. Time management still an issue. Lack of tackling. Lack of concentration with undisciplined
penalties. The only real thing I’ve noticed that he’s improved at is doing something other than 3rd and 2/4th and 2 up the middle and that took about 4 years to figure out. Just not good all around which reflects with the mediocre records (without the FCS wins).

You bring up an interesting point, so I thought I’d look at 3rd and 4th down conversion percentage by year:

3rd down conversion percentage (national rank):
2024: 36.76% (83)
2023: 42.86% (33)
2022: 38.85% (61)
2021: 36.31% (90)
2020: 49.33% (7)

4th down conversion percentage (national rank):
2024: 77.78% (t13)
2023: 57.69% (t41)
2022: 48.48% (71)
2021: 64.86% (22)
2020: 52.63% (t73)

So it does appear we’re figuring out 4th down with better frequency, but are nearly middle of the road on 3rd down conversion percentage (average of 55th over 5 years, upper middle of the middle 3rd).

[Saint3333]

Beau, that was a great unbiased analysis, thanks for taking the time to provide all that data.

[BeauFoster]

*** App State is one of only five Group of Five
programs (and 14 FBS programs) in the country with at least three
nine-win seasons since the start of 2020.
***3 STRAIGHT YEARS WITH A RANKED WIN
2021: 30-27 vs. #14 Coastal Carolina
2022: 17-14 at #6 Texas A&M
2023: 26-23 (OT) at #18 James Madison
*** No losing seasons
*** Division Champions 2 of last 3 years

Again, these are facts not opinions and they are in the ballpark of W-L records - the only other reason I have seen is that the program is on a downward trend. Without question this is a down year but as pointed out last season we were division champs and won another bowl game. Only one other team in the SB world of 14 teams can say that.
In the last 6 years there have been 84 (give or take) teams playing for the 2 slots in the Conf.Champ game - those 12 slots have been filled by just 4 teams - APPSTATE 4 times --- LOUISIANA 4 times --- TROY 2 times and COASTAL 2 times
I know some who see a downward trend here - convince an impartial party that this is your case to fire the coach. None of us are impartial but some are totally impractical

Let’s take a look at these “facts”, based on the numbers I dug up:
- No disagreement with the 9 win season. Although I quantified the “quality” of those wins, many being against teams with losing records
- 3 straight years with a ranked win…I’d argue against this one, as TAMU finished with a losing record and was definitely not ranked at the end of the season. Also, CCU was ranked when we played them, but did not finish the season ranked.
- No losing seasons…well, not technically, but we were 4-6 in 2022 against FBS opponents, and were not bowl eligible because 2 wins were against FCS schools, and only 1 can count. Semantics, but we were not good in 2022.
- Division champs 2 of the last 3 years…nah. I don’t care what kind of banner we hang or engrave into rings, we didn’t win the division last year. JMU just wasn’t eligible to play in the championship game.

I’ve posted a fairly comprehensive set of statistics where the overwhelming majority of show we are either trending downwards, or we are solidly mid-pack, under Clark.

Edit - fixed some grammar to make it a little easier to read

[WVAPPeer]

Yes you have listed good info but if you look back you will not see anywhere I've said the team was improved this season. My point still remains I don't see where any of this is fireable right now

[BeauFoster]

Yes you have listed good info but if you look back you will not see anywhere I've said the team was improved this season. My point still remains I don't see where any of this is fireable right now

So you can’t argue with anything I said. Got it. What I’ve shown is that this program, under Clark and staff, is middle of the road at best. We have not improved as a program in his 5 years, and in most cases, have regressed. It’s not even about this year - it’s about the total sum of the 5 years. And it’s not good.

Please, argue with me and convince me why you’re right and he shouldn’t be relieved of his duties at the end of this abysmal season. I’ve given you multiple posts, with objective DATA. You’ve done nothing of the sort. You’re just giving us your gut feeling at this point. I did what you asked, but you won’t do the same. Rules for thee…not for me, I guess.