The cancer on this program is

[BallantyneApp]

Yes you have listed good info but if you look back you will not see anywhere I've said the team was improved this season. My point still remains I don't see where any of this is fireable right now

So you can’t argue with anything I said. Got it. What I’ve shown is that this program, under Clark and staff, is middle of the road at best. We have not improved as a program in his 5 years, and in most cases, have regressed. It’s not even about this year - it’s about the total sum of the 5 years. And it’s not good.

Please, argue with me and convince me why you’re right and he shouldn’t be relieved of his duties at the end of this abysmal season. I’ve given you multiple posts, with objective DATA. You’ve done nothing of the sort. You’re just giving us your gut feeling at this point. I did what you asked, but you won’t do the same. Rules for thee…not for me, I guess.

importantly the "arguments" on the other side are not really analysis, just a few data points.

1. 3 ranked wins. Ok, but 2 of the teams that we're ranked at the time App won didn't finish ranked. Texas A&M was as mediocre as App was in 2022. CCU and JMU were good victories. But theres a counter point to these- we have 8 blowout losses or losses to teams with a LOSING record from our G5 peers in the same time frame. 8. Did we even have 8 losses TOTAL from 2016-2019. That doesn't include our P5 losses and our *good* G5 losses.

2. no losing record- yes 2022 was a losing season we had 2 fcs games over hte normal 1.
3.Divisions 2021 was legit. 2023 was on a technicality. We no longer have dumb rules to help us.

[WVAPPeer]

In the six seasons there have approximately 84 teams fighting to be one of two teams still standing (12 in total). Out of those
App - 4
La. - 4
Troy - 2
CC - 2
GaSo - 0
GaState - 0
Marsh - 0
Jmu - 0
Odu - 0
ArkSt - 0
SoAla - 0
Ulm - 0
TxSt - 0
SoMiss - 0
Granted some have not had as many opportunities... However I am still perplexed when some look at this and call App mediocre or middle of the pack?

[BeauFoster]

In the six seasons there have approximately 84 teams fighting to be one of two teams still standing (12 in total). Out of those
App - 4
La. - 4
Troy - 2
CC - 2
GaSo - 0
GaState - 0
Marsh - 0
Jmu - 0
Odu - 0
ArkSt - 0
SoAla - 0
Ulm - 0
TxSt - 0
SoMiss - 0
Granted some have not had as many opportunities... However I am still perplexed when some look at this and call App mediocre or middle of the pack?

You’re only using half the facts. I’ll spell it out for you again:

Finish in Sun Belt East:
2024: currently 6th
2023: 2nd
2022: 4th
2021: 1st
2020: 2nd

That’s one legit appearance in the championship game since Clark took over. Any other appearance is based off of a technicality.

You want to know why I say middle of the pack, just go look at all those numbers in parentheses beside all the empirical data I posted in this thread. Those are national rankings. The vast majority are in the bottom half of the rankings. It’s not hard, numbers don’t lie.

Still waiting on you to show me something that supports your argument. You’ve failed to do so so far.

[311neers]

In the six seasons there have approximately 84 teams fighting to be one of two teams still standing (12 in total). Out of those
App - 4
La. - 4
Troy - 2
CC - 2
GaSo - 0
GaState - 0
Marsh - 0
Jmu - 0
Odu - 0
ArkSt - 0
SoAla - 0
Ulm - 0
TxSt - 0
SoMiss - 0
Granted some have not had as many opportunities... However I am still perplexed when some look at this and call App mediocre or middle of the pack?

What are the numbers for? 4? 2? 2? 0? This is confusing and I'm not sure we understand the point.
Shouldn't these all be 0? No SunBelt team has won a national championship if that's what these numbers are referring to.

[WVAPPeer]

games played in SB championship games -

so you are saying middle of the pack in FBS, not SB?

[BallantyneApp]

In the six seasons there have approximately 84 teams fighting to be one of two teams still standing (12 in total). Out of those
App - 4
La. - 4
Troy - 2
CC - 2
GaSo - 0
GaState - 0
Marsh - 0
Jmu - 0
Odu - 0
ArkSt - 0
SoAla - 0
Ulm - 0
TxSt - 0
SoMiss - 0
Granted some have not had as many opportunities... However I am still perplexed when some look at this and call App mediocre or middle of the pack?

1 legit one under Clark in 2021.

I did more analysis- from 2014-2019 we lost 10 G5 games or 1.6/year. Take out the worst year (2014 with 4) and its 6 or 1.2/year

from 2020-2024 we've lost 18 G5 games or 3.6/yr. Take out the worst year (2022) and its 13 or 3.25/year

[311neers]

games played in SB championship games -

so you are saying middle of the pack in FBS, not SB?

Currently? Bottom tier SBC and Bottom Tier FBS.
https://kfordratings.com/power
101st in FBS

[ASUFan4863]

It really is mind boggling that there are people who still can’t see that we have declined over the last 5 years. Just about every statistic supports that.

[hapapp]

I think the work done by Beau does paint a picture of a team that seems, at least, stuck in a similar spot over the last six years (minus this year...not knowing what next year looks like). I offer no counter because I don't have a quarrel with what has been presented. The only thing to perhaps put it in context is what do the stats look like for the rest of the Sun Belt teams? I think we can all agree that Madison in its short time in the Belt has proven to the best performer but how about others?

[BeauFoster]

games played in SB championship games -

so you are saying middle of the pack in FBS, not SB?

Add up the division finishes for App that I posted above. 6+2+4+1+2=15. Divide by 5.

What’s that spell? MIDDLE OF THE PACK.

You’re making this easy.

[311neers]

BGP podcast out and it's refreshing and worth a listen because it's only 32 minutes. They mention "Joey is who he is, not going to change".
But no mention of our Head Coach being who he is and hasn't gotten better.
Interesting.

"If someone is too expensive and not doing their job, what do you do in the business world"?
Great quote, just talking about the wrong guy. It's not Joey, it's Shawn that is making too much money and not doing the job.

[BeauFoster]

I think the work done by Beau does paint a picture of a team that seems, at least, stuck in a similar spot over the last six years (minus this year...not knowing what next year looks like). I offer no counter because I don't have a quarrel with what has been presented. The only thing to perhaps put it in context is what do the stats look like for the rest of the Sun Belt teams? I think we can all agree that Madison in its short time in the Belt has proven to the best performer but how about others?

Hap, if I recall, you’re an Arsenal supporter. For that reason I will not put all these metrics together for the rest of the Belt. COYS

[hapapp]

I think the work done by Beau does paint a picture of a team that seems, at least, stuck in a similar spot over the last six years (minus this year...not knowing what next year looks like). I offer no counter because I don't have a quarrel with what has been presented. The only thing to perhaps put it in context is what do the stats look like for the rest of the Sun Belt teams? I think we can all agree that Madison in its short time in the Belt has proven to the best performer but how about others?

Hap, if I recall, you’re an Arsenal supporter. For that reason I will not put all these metrics together for the rest of the Belt. COYS

Prior to this year, we do sit in the middle of the 7 schools in the East. Granted this is only the third year for three of them. JMU in its previous two years finished first in the East. Coastal has averaged a second place finish over the last four years and we sit third with an average finish of 2.25. Ga State averaged 4.5, GS 4.75, Marshall in two years is at 5 and ODU in the same time period 5.5. We don't know how this year will finish but given our current status, our average will in a likelihood tick upward relative to the rest of the division.

Prior to this year, we certainly were closer to the top than the bottom but its hard to argue that we have been where we once were, and this season's performance to date suggest our worst finish by far. The result from the UL game gave some hope that there can be something salvaged over the rest of the schedule but has started on the 26th. Though, a repeat of last year seems less likely at this point.

[Saint3333]

This is a classic Feelings vs. Facts debate. Facts in society rarely change feelings and feelings never change facts.

[appgrad95&97]

Beau thank you for such good work. There's not much evidence that Clark is a good coach and no evidence things are getting better. I will go back to the point I made yesterday, these problems are being ignored or excused.

[BambooRdApp]

Beau thank you for such good work. There's not much evidence that Clark is a good coach and no evidence things are getting better. I will go back to the point I made yesterday, these problems are being ignored or excused.

Other than your "opinion" ....which is not a fact...what actual evidence do you have that the problems are being ignored or excused?
The stats post outlines the wins and losses. That does not provide any evidence that the athletics department is not concerned and are not thinking about next steps...
The coach is in year 5. Unless some off field scandal or some internal impropriety by the coach, most coaches are typically given 4 to 6 years to be the coach....
This is not a defense of the coaching staff...this is more of....other than your opinion, what actual knowledge do you have that the athletics department is not currently concerned and thinking about how to make the program better. The answer is not ..they should fire the HC Mid-Year ....as that idea is not going to happen in this situation.

[appgrad95&97]

Beau thank you for such good work. There's not much evidence that Clark is a good coach and no evidence things are getting better. I will go back to the point I made yesterday, these problems are being ignored or excused.

Other than your "opinion" ....which is not a fact...what actual evidence do you have that the problems are being ignored or excused?
The stats post outlines the wins and losses. That does not provide any evidence that the athletics department is not concerned and are not thinking about next steps...
The coach is in year 5. Unless some off field scandal or some internal impropriety by the coach, most coaches are typically given 4 to 6 years to be the coach....
This is not a defense of the coaching staff...this is more of....other than your opinion, what actual knowledge do you have that the athletics department is not currently concerned and thinking about how to make the program better. The answer is not ..they should fire the HC Mid-Year ....as that idea is not going to happen in this situation.

I have never said Clark should be fired. I am saying, the record points to regression in the program. Beau has provided statistics which support that claim. My reading of Clark-supportive comments indicate that his record should be ignored because he is a good guy and an App guy. Or excused because we don't have the financial capacity to do better.

My opinion is, this is what we'll get with Clark. That maybe good enough for some and not good enough for others. I don't think he is going to be fired mid season. I would go as far as guessing that if we can win three of the next five he'll be here next season.

[WataugaMan]

Better make that 4 vice 3, no bowl and the fat lady sings.

[WVAPPeer]

"I have never said Clark should be fired. I am saying, the record points to regression in the program. Beau has provided statistics which support that claim. My reading of Clark-supportive comments indicate that his record should be ignored because he is a good guy and an App guy. Or excused because we don't have the financial capacity to do better."

Personally I have not made any of these arguments in favor of Clark - I guess some are just so biased that they don't comprehend - I have never said any of this - I have never said the program was progressing, I have never said it was in steep decline, I know nothing about financial capacity and I have personally never met or spoken to Coach Clark --- Here it is in most simple terms - I SEE NOTHING RIGHT NOW THAT IS A FIRING OFFENSE -

[BallantyneApp]

Beau thank you for such good work. There's not much evidence that Clark is a good coach and no evidence things are getting better. I will go back to the point I made yesterday, these problems are being ignored or excused.

Other than your "opinion" ....which is not a fact...what actual evidence do you have that the problems are being ignored or excused?
The stats post outlines the wins and losses. That does not provide any evidence that the athletics department is not concerned and are not thinking about next steps...
The coach is in year 5. Unless some off field scandal or some internal impropriety by the coach, most coaches are typically given 4 to 6 years to be the coach....
This is not a defense of the coaching staff...this is more of....other than your opinion, what actual knowledge do you have that the athletics department is not currently concerned and thinking about how to make the program better. The answer is not ..they should fire the HC Mid-Year ....as that idea is not going to happen in this situation.

1. Do you mean by the AD or by posters here? We have plenty of evidence of posters here. We don't have any evidence of the AD which is fine.
2. Totally agree here although I think its mostly on the lower end than the higher end. We have more than enough data to decide the future at App State.
3. I'd actually argue that there is a strategic benefit to firing mid year. As has already mentioned this is probably going to be a busy year in the region for coach-finding. Acting first and getting first crack at available coaches might be the right strategic play. Whether we have the available funds is one thing but theres definite strategic value to acting first.