UNC hires Outside Experts to check data...

[appst89]

This should be the biggest academic scandal in the history of college athletics, but because it happened in Chapel Hell, nothing is being done about it. Well, nothing unless you count the continued attempt to discredit the person who brought it all to light. A bogus department with fake classes, changed grades, and what work was done was done by tutors and they get nothing? Every school in America should just follow this model and there would never be any APR problems. I bet UW-Milwaukee and UNLV wish they had the blueprint for the Carolina Way.

Like I've said many times. I have no problems if anything happens to UNC for this.
Your hatred also shines through about what UNC is doing to dig into the information that MW has brought forth. 3 independent researchers have stated that MW's info is unreliable.
Are you actually blaming UNC for trying to discredit bogus information she has put out in the media? Are you serious????
You are the one who can't see through things because of your bias towards UNC.

Yeah, right. Keep it Carolina blue, baby.

[AppGrad1]

UNC isn't doing anymore to correct this problem than I am. They're trying to appease the NCAA so they can keep "graduating" football and basketball players uninterrupted. Take off the sky blue glasses.

And you know this how? Is this your opinion or can you back up the claim that they are doing nothing?
No blue glasses. I don't care if they get punished or not. Does not matter to me whatsoever.

See doubleA's explanation below. Super independent, huh...?

Still waiting on your link as to why UNC has refused to do anything about this stuff?

The researcher's email is a good start. There's no reason to argue about this because your Tar Heel born, Tar Heel bred...

Many "older" folks in NC pull for a NC ACC school even if they went to another school later in their life.
They grew up in an era when ASU was not big on the college scene.
I grew up in that era and if you didn't you have no clue about this age group.
There were ONLY ACC schools in our "early" years. You pretty much were influenced by what your parents were watched during those times.
As I grew older I checked into ASU, visited and loved the school and was accepted and loved every minute of it and support it as a season ticket holder for many years.
I still pull for UNC but do NOT support it in any way. That's hard for you younger folk to understand. And yes, there will be some "older" folk who will discredit this by saying they only pull for ASU but it will not be the norm...

[BeauFoster]

UNC isn't doing anymore to correct this problem than I am. They're trying to appease the NCAA so they can keep "graduating" football and basketball players uninterrupted. Take off the sky blue glasses.

And you know this how? Is this your opinion or can you back up the claim that they are doing nothing?
No blue glasses. I don't care if they get punished or not. Does not matter to me whatsoever.

See doubleA's explanation below. Super independent, huh...?

Still waiting on your link as to why UNC has refused to do anything about this stuff?

The researcher's email is a good start. There's no reason to argue about this because your Tar Heel born, Tar Heel bred...

Many "older" folks in NC pull for a NC ACC school even if they went to another school later in their life.
They grew up in an era when ASU was not big on the college scene.
I grew up in that era and if you didn't you have no clue about this age group.
There was ONLY ACC schools in our "early" years. You pretty much was influenced by what your parents were watching during those times.
As I grew older I checked into ASU and visited and loved the school and was accepted and loved every minute of it and support it as a season ticket holder for many years.
I still pull for UNC but do NOT support it in any way. That's hard for you younger folk to understand. And yes, there will be some "older" folk who will discredit this by saying they only pull for ASU but it will not be the norm...[/quote]
For starters, I'm not that young-younger than you, but I didn't just graduate last May. Two, my father cheered for UNC for years (still does to an extent), but I'm a man and can make my own decisions. I grew up and discovered that the worst fan on earth, behind a Yankees fan, is a Walmart hole fan. They hoot and holler when "their" team wins and defend them and the Carolina way to the death. Saying you pull for UNC because that's what you did when you were a kid is the same as defending ******** your pants when your 40.

[AppinVA]

The researcher's email is a good start. There's no reason to argue about this because your Tar Heel born, Tar Heel bred...

Many "older" folks in NC pull for a NC ACC school even if they went to another school later in their life.
They grew up in an era when ASU was not big on the college scene.
I grew up in that era and if you didn't you have no clue about this age group.
There was ONLY ACC schools in our "early" years. You pretty much was influenced by what your parents were watching during those times.
As I grew older I checked into ASU and visited and loved the school and was accepted and loved every minute of it and support it as a season ticket holder for many years.
I still pull for UNC but do NOT support it in any way. That's hard for you younger folk to understand. And yes, there will be some "older" folk who will discredit this by saying they only pull for ASU but it will not be the norm...

And the older folks with a degree from there (the ones that went to class and got said degree) think that's cute. It's not so much the alumni, though they can be pretty arrogant, it's the fans that couldn't find UNC-Cheat with a pre-programmed GPS, that make me shake my head.

[AppGrad1]

And you know this how? Is this your opinion or can you back up the claim that they are doing nothing?
No blue glasses. I don't care if they get punished or not. Does not matter to me whatsoever.[/quote]

See doubleA's explanation below. Super independent, huh...?[/quote]


Still waiting on your link as to why UNC has refused to do anything about this stuff? [/quote]

The researcher's email is a good start. There's no reason to argue about this because your Tar Heel born, Tar Heel bred...[/quote]


Many "older" folks in NC pull for a NC ACC school even if they went to another school later in their life.
They grew up in an era when ASU was not big on the college scene.
I grew up in that era and if you didn't you have no clue about this age group.
There was ONLY ACC schools in our "early" years. You pretty much was influenced by what your parents were watching during those times.
As I grew older I checked into ASU and visited and loved the school and was accepted and loved every minute of it and support it as a season ticket holder for many years.
I still pull for UNC but do NOT support it in any way. That's hard for you younger folk to understand. And yes, there will be some "older" folk who will discredit this by saying they only pull for ASU but it will not be the norm...[/quote]
For starters, I'm not that young-younger than you, but I didn't just graduate last May. Two, my father cheered for UNC for years (still does to an extent), but I'm a man and can make my own decisions. I grew up and discovered that the worst fan on earth, behind a Yankees fan, is a Walmart hole fan. They hoot and holler when "their" team wins and defend them and the Carolina way to the death. Saying you pull for UNC because that's what you did when you were a kid is the same as defending shitting your pants when your 40.[/quote]


Our conversation is over.
Will not have a civil debate over vulgar language.
Somehow I thought this violated board rules. Maybe not...

[Saint3333]

This is a farce. Let's stop wasting tax payer dollars on a conclusion that is set before investigations are finalized.

The damage is done, their Carolina way reputation is tainted.

[WVAPPeer]

I first thing I thought when seeing this was it seemed eerily similar to Chris Christie hiring HIS lawyer to do an investigation into a matter and finding the client (Christie/UNC Athletics) had no culpability ---

As with most cases in the public venue, the real story will probably not come out, if ever, until ALL parties involved are subpoenaed before legal authorities ---

[asutrnr81]

And you know this how? Is this your opinion or can you back up the claim that they are doing nothing?
No blue glasses. I don't care if they get punished or not. Does not matter to me whatsoever.

See doubleA's explanation below. Super independent, huh...?

Still waiting on your link as to why UNC has refused to do anything about this stuff?

The researcher's email is a good start. There's no reason to argue about this because your Tar Heel born, Tar Heel bred...

Many "older" folks in NC pull for a NC ACC school even if they went to another school later in their life.
They grew up in an era when ASU was not big on the college scene.
I grew up in that era and if you didn't you have no clue about this age group.
There were ONLY ACC schools in our "early" years. You pretty much were influenced by what your parents were watched during those times.
As I grew older I checked into ASU, visited and loved the school and was accepted and loved every minute of it and support it as a season ticket holder for many years.
I still pull for UNC but do NOT support it in any way. That's hard for you younger folk to understand. And yes, there will be some "older" folk who will discredit this by saying they only pull for ASU but it will not be the norm...

Biggest missed point here...Beau is old too!....

Dang Beau, I posted before I read the rest and saw you defended YOSEF.

[TheMoody1]

I first thing I thought when seeing this was it seemed eerily similar to Chris Christie hiring HIS lawyer to do an investigation

My thought as well. UNC seems to do things the "Jersey Way".

[Gonzo]

He's old enough to have a better perspective on the North Carolina sports dynamic than all of us, but not old enough to come to grips with reality or to hear the 'S' word without getting upset.

[bcoach]

This whole thing about you can't root for an ACC team and still be an ASU fan is just plain stupid. If that is the case does that mean you can't root for ASU if you didn't go there? Does that mean you shouldn't donate to ASU if you didn't go there? Really guys if you truly believe that you can't enjoy watching ACC basketball and pull for one team or another you need to grow up no matter how old you are. I for one pull for Duke. I am actually able to turn on the TV and watch them. I pulled for them before I ever heard of ASU. If we were to play Duke I would be pulling for ASU no question. If we are not playing them what the hell difference does it make? If I want to keep watching Duke do you really feel I should stop contributing to ASU?

[asu66]

So the executive summary of this "independent," "outside" review was written by UNC's Office of the Provost, was it. I guess that depends on what the definitions of "independent" and "outside" are. The UNC Exec VP and Provost must think that all North Carolinians are unable to read between the lines.


This was my initial reaction as well, until I read the three reports provided by independent experts from the University of Minnesota, UVA and Georgia Southern. Each had similar conclusions and pretty much shot down the use of SATA Reading Vocabulary subtest (test used for assessment) to determine reading grade level. This is a 25 question multiple choice test and the reviewers noted a number of limitations of the test itself, and in particular, with just using one part of the test and excluding reading comprehension subtest. Technical errors were noted in Mrs. Willingham's assessment methods, data computation and analysis. Also, large demographic differences were noted between the SATA norm population and the UNC athlete test taker population. The SATA population was comprised of 46% male, 54% female, and just 8% black while the UNC athlete sample population was heavily weighted towards black males. Further, SATA is normed for grades 10-16 and extrapolation is required to associate any scores to grades below 10. Mrs. Willingham's findings associated a number of scores to grades 3-9, which required extrapolation. The authors noted that there are better, contemporary tests available, most of which use much larger sample sizes than SATA. SATA was normed on a relatively small sample of 1,005 back when the test was developed in1991.

Don't get me wrong, Mrs. Willingham's points and criticisms are not without merit. After all, she had years of experience working one on one with countless athletes who were in need of remediation and extensive tutoring assistance. Certainly UNC lowered admissions standards to admit a limited number of athletes who should never have been admitted, because they stood little chance of success in the classroom. And this snowballed into a situation where tutors were writing papers for certain athletes, where athletes were steered to fake classes, where grades were improperly changed, etc. What they did in Chapel Hill is nothing short of academic fraud and an embarrassment to our State. And they still have their heads in the sand and are locked in denial mode. All of this is in the name of chasing the growing stream of revenues associated with "Big Time" college sports. It seems to come at a steep price.

I read it all, also. I was in the profession for 38 years, so this isn't my first rodeo. What I was saying is simply this. If Carolina already has a black eye for years of fraud and cover up, then don't contract for an independent, outside review of the facts; and then get your own interior hired help to wordsmith and issue summaries on Carolina letterhead. Certainly not if you hope to restore your institution's credibility anytime soon!

Essentially what the UNC Provost has done is waste a lot of university resources ($,$$$,$$$) for nothing. One step forward and one step back!

[bcoach]

So the executive summary of this "independent," "outside" review was written by UNC's Office of the Provost, was it. I guess that depends on what the definitions of "independent" and "outside" are. The UNC Exec VP and Provost must think that all North Carolinians are unable to read between the lines.


This was my initial reaction as well, until I read the three reports provided by independent experts from the University of Minnesota, UVA and Georgia Southern. Each had similar conclusions and pretty much shot down the use of SATA Reading Vocabulary subtest (test used for assessment) to determine reading grade level. This is a 25 question multiple choice test and the reviewers noted a number of limitations of the test itself, and in particular, with just using one part of the test and excluding reading comprehension subtest. Technical errors were noted in Mrs. Willingham's assessment methods, data computation and analysis. Also, large demographic differences were noted between the SATA norm population and the UNC athlete test taker population. The SATA population was comprised of 46% male, 54% female, and just 8% black while the UNC athlete sample population was heavily weighted towards black males. Further, SATA is normed for grades 10-16 and extrapolation is required to associate any scores to grades below 10. Mrs. Willingham's findings associated a number of scores to grades 3-9, which required extrapolation. The authors noted that there are better, contemporary tests available, most of which use much larger sample sizes than SATA. SATA was normed on a relatively small sample of 1,005 back when the test was developed in1991.

Don't get me wrong, Mrs. Willingham's points and criticisms are not without merit. After all, she had years of experience working one on one with countless athletes who were in need of remediation and extensive tutoring assistance. Certainly UNC lowered admissions standards to admit a limited number of athletes who should never have been admitted, because they stood little chance of success in the classroom. And this snowballed into a situation where tutors were writing papers for certain athletes, where athletes were steered to fake classes, where grades were improperly changed, etc. What they did in Chapel Hill is nothing short of academic fraud and an embarrassment to our State. And they still have their heads in the sand and are locked in denial mode. All of this is in the name of chasing the growing stream of revenues associated with "Big Time" college sports. It seems to come at a steep price.

I read it all, also. I was in the profession for 38 years, so this isn't my first rodeo. What I was saying is simply this. If Carolina already has a black eye for years of fraud and cover up, then don't contract for an independent, outside review of the facts; and then get your own interior hired help to wordsmith and issue summaries on Carolina letterhead. Certainly not if you hope to restore your institution's credibility anytime soon!

Essentially what the UNC Provost has done is waste a lot of university resources ($,$$$,$$$) for nothing. One step forward and one step back!

He has the money to spend.....at our expense.

[AppGrad1]

He's old enough to have a better perspective on the North Carolina sports dynamic than all of us, but not old enough to come to grips with reality or to hear the 'S' word without getting upset.

I'm educated enough to express myself without vulgar language. My parents taught me to be respectful at a young age.
Many, many people do not possess that quality these days.
Thankfully I had parents like this.

[appst89]

Our conversation is over.
Will not have a civil debate over vulgar language.
Somehow I thought this violated board rules. Maybe not...

My sincerest apologies for not being able to be here 24/7. Next time I'll ask my childhood friend to die on a more convenient schedule.

[Gonzo]

Whether a mod sees it immediately or not, I don't think it's a top priority to shelter a grown man from having to read one of the most mild examples of profanity in the English language. In my humble opinion of course.

[AppGrad1]

Our conversation is over.
Will not have a civil debate over vulgar language.
Somehow I thought this violated board rules. Maybe not...

My sincerest apologies for not being able to be here 24/7. Next time I'll ask my childhood friend to die on a more convenient schedule.

Very, very sorry to hear about the passing.

[Appftw]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/0 ... 1amscLD-Uk

"Willingham had said the experts weren’t given access to all of the information she used to determine how well the athletes were reading. Her data involved roughly 180 athletes tested over an eight-year-period, but it was not vetted by an experienced co-investigator. Neither the full data set nor the underlying tests the athletes took have been made public."

Sorry, Appgrad1. The flagship is by no means transparent.

Why would Willingham try to tarnish UNC's reputation? It doesn't make sense because she seemed to love the university. She tried to expose the truth and now loses her job for it.

[bcoach]

Very similar to court cases. They are not there for the truth, they are there to win.

[Gonzo]

Mary Willingham is the Edward Snowden of UNC. Vilified and banished for exposing the rampant scandal and corruption within.