Exodus of Faculty

[Maddog1956]

http://www2.wataugademocrat.com/News/st ... -id-014937

Tim Burwell, vice provost for resource management in the Office of Academic Affairs, told the Senate on April 28 that 21 faculty members have left or have indicated they are leaving for non-retirement reasons since the 2012-13 academic year. Of those, he said, 15 faculty members expressed no desire for a counter-offer from ASU.

But figures from Anthony Calamai, dean of the university's largest college, the College of Arts and Sciences, are even higher. Calamai said that 22 faculty have said they are leaving the college this year alone. That's up from five last year, four in 2011-12, four in 2010-11 and four in 2009-10 -- "from the best we can tell," he said. "As you go further back, we could be missing one or two."

Cuts in UNC system funding, growing cost of living in the High Country and lack of pay-raises are some of the culprits, but could this issue dig deeper? I'm sure the faculty's favorite provost Lori Gonzales belongs in the conversation as well. Is it just a vocal minority that's getting fed up with the other side having the leverage or is it a bigger issue?

I'm fine with the turnover as long as it is the vocal minority causing all the troubles who is leaving. Not good if that bunch of nut jobs is chasing good professors off.

True, my experience is that usually the good employees leaves and you can't get rid of the bad ones without firing them.

[newtoasu]

I don't know, but I'd like to see the results of an exit survey. I'm sure HR gives one, if they don't they have real problems. To one time employees tell you the truth is when they are leaving.

I never had an exit interview with HR when I left in 2005. I left because of lack of spousal employment opportunities. My wife was only able to get a job at Ronda-Clingman elementary in far eastern Wilkes county. She got tired of the almost 1 hour commute down and back up the mountain, especially in winter when snow and ice closed the schools where we lived but it was sunny in the piedmont. She was never able to get a job in Watauga because they mainly hired the less expensive inexperienced new graduates from ASU. Not that I blame them for trying to save a buck, just stating the facts.

As for raises, I never received one in the 4 years I was at ASU. We did receive a one-time bonus check (less that 1/2 of 1% of my salary) but that was specifically a one-time item so that it would not increase our base pay.

However, to be honest, NC is not alone in being very miserly with faculty raises. I have now been teaching full time for the last 12 years and there have only been three years in which the faculty received percentage raises (a 1.7%, 1% and 2%) at the two universities (both state universities in Texas) where I have taught since ASU. I have though received two promotion raises, but because I received a promotion in one of those years I was ineligible for one of those three raises I mentioned above.

It is a well known fact in many universities that the only way to get raises is to be willing to move to another school. Negotitate the best you can upfront because that is all you'll ever get unless you change jobs or get a promotion.

[PhillyApp1]

I don't know, but I'd like to see the results of an exit survey. I'm sure HR gives one, if they don't they have real problems. To one time employees tell you the truth is when they are leaving.

I never had an exit interview with HR when I left in 2005. I left because of lack of spousal employment opportunities. My wife was only able to get a job at Ronda-Clingman elementary in far eastern Wilkes county. She got tired of the almost 1 hour commute down and back up the mountain, especially in winter when snow and ice closed the schools where we lived but it was sunny in the piedmont. She was never able to get a job in Watauga because they mainly hired the less expensive inexperienced new graduates from ASU. Not that I blame them for trying to save a buck, just stating the facts.

As for raises, I never received one in the 4 years I was at ASU. We did receive a one-time bonus check (less that 1/2 of 1% of my salary) but that was specifically a one-time item so that it would not increase our base pay.

However, to be honest, NC is not alone in being very miserly with faculty raises. I have now been teaching full time for the last 12 years and there have only been three years in which the faculty received percentage raises (a 1.7%, 1% and 2%) at the two universities (both state universities in Texas) where I have taught since ASU. I have though received two promotion raises, but because I received a promotion in one of those years I was ineligible for one of those three raises I mentioned above.

It is a well known fact in many universities that the only way to get raises is to be willing to move to another school. Negotitate the best you can upfront because that is all you'll ever get unless you change jobs or get a promotion.

Its well known in corporate America also, you have to move to grow income.

[Maddog1956]

I don't know, but I'd like to see the results of an exit survey. I'm sure HR gives one, if they don't they have real problems. To one time employees tell you the truth is when they are leaving.

I never had an exit interview with HR when I left in 2005. I left because of lack of spousal employment opportunities. My wife was only able to get a job at Ronda-Clingman elementary in far eastern Wilkes county. She got tired of the almost 1 hour commute down and back up the mountain, especially in winter when snow and ice closed the schools where we lived but it was sunny in the piedmont. She was never able to get a job in Watauga because they mainly hired the less expensive inexperienced new graduates from ASU. Not that I blame them for trying to save a buck, just stating the facts.

As for raises, I never received one in the 4 years I was at ASU. We did receive a one-time bonus check (less that 1/2 of 1% of my salary) but that was specifically a one-time item so that it would not increase our base pay.

However, to be honest, NC is not alone in being very miserly with faculty raises. I have now been teaching full time for the last 12 years and there have only been three years in which the faculty received percentage raises (a 1.7%, 1% and 2%) at the two universities (both state universities in Texas) where I have taught since ASU. I have though received two promotion raises, but because I received a promotion in one of those years I was ineligible for one of those three raises I mentioned above.

It is a well known fact in many universities that the only way to get raises is to be willing to move to another school. Negotitate the best you can upfront because that is all you'll ever get unless you change jobs or get a promotion.

Thanks for the info! When I was at App (80-84) the business professors started at $36,500(ABD) and with a dissertation $37,500, approx. That seemed like a lot of money to a grad student, but now I can see how especially for computer faculty it wasn't as much as I thought it was. There is something to be said for the college working environment to be sure, but it can't overcome everything. A lot of the faculty had other business even then (christmas trees). I always knew that that there wasn't many places around boone for grads to go but the campus, but I never thought about spouses!

This is the type of thing they can find out with exit interview and if they're not doing them they don't care.

I did notice when I was going through orientation with my daughter how young a lot of the senior staff was and how many graduated from app and this was their first job.

[ASUPATCH]

I don't know, but I'd like to see the results of an exit survey. I'm sure HR gives one, if they don't they have real problems. To one time employees tell you the truth is when they are leaving.

I never had an exit interview with HR when I left in 2005. I left because of lack of spousal employment opportunities. My wife was only able to get a job at Ronda-Clingman elementary in far eastern Wilkes county. She got tired of the almost 1 hour commute down and back up the mountain, especially in winter when snow and ice closed the schools where we lived but it was sunny in the piedmont. She was never able to get a job in Watauga because they mainly hired the less expensive inexperienced new graduates from ASU. Not that I blame them for trying to save a buck, just stating the facts.

As for raises, I never received one in the 4 years I was at ASU. We did receive a one-time bonus check (less that 1/2 of 1% of my salary) but that was specifically a one-time item so that it would not increase our base pay.

However, to be honest, NC is not alone in being very miserly with faculty raises. I have now been teaching full time for the last 12 years and there have only been three years in which the faculty received percentage raises (a 1.7%, 1% and 2%) at the two universities (both state universities in Texas) where I have taught since ASU. I have though received two promotion raises, but because I received a promotion in one of those years I was ineligible for one of those three raises I mentioned above.

It is a well known fact in many universities that the only way to get raises is to be willing to move to another school. Negotitate the best you can upfront because that is all you'll ever get unless you change jobs or get a promotion.

This is a HUGE issue. Most profs/phds marry other career oriented individuals not stay at home spouses and jobs in Boone are sparse and don't pay well.

[clayton]

Let me restate, the greater Denver Metro Area which I consider Denver is much cheaper. Denver proper is very small size wise. Yes if I want a high rise condo downtown it will be pricey. I have two kids and a dog, I will be in the suburbs where 250-300 buys far more house than it does in Boone. Sales price also doesn't tell the whole story. In Boone if I spend 250 I have to remodel a kitchen and two bathrooms as the home are much older and in greater need a repair/updating. For 250 out there I would need to simply move my furniture in as new construction is the norm.

Again. Boone real estate did not explode over the past year, so I wouldn't say that's the reason for the exodus of faculty.


But, if you're going to live in the suburbs and work in the city, you're typically going to see a 30+ minute commute. If you go to Jefferson or Mountain City, your house gets a lot more affordable and that 30 minute drive would be a lot nicer than the ride from the suburbs.

I moved to just outside of DC a few months ago. You're dealing with $400k apartments...in the suburbs.

[ASUPATCH]

Let me restate, the greater Denver Metro Area which I consider Denver is much cheaper. Denver proper is very small size wise. Yes if I want a high rise condo downtown it will be pricey. I have two kids and a dog, I will be in the suburbs where 250-300 buys far more house than it does in Boone. Sales price also doesn't tell the whole story. In Boone if I spend 250 I have to remodel a kitchen and two bathrooms as the home are much older and in greater need a repair/updating. For 250 out there I would need to simply move my furniture in as new construction is the norm.

Again. Boone real estate did not explode over the past year, so I wouldn't say that's the reason for the exodus of faculty.

But, if you're going to live in the suburbs and work in the city, you're typically going to see a 30+ minute commute. If you go to Jefferson or Mountain City, your house gets a lot more affordable and that 30 minute drive would be a lot nicer than the ride from the suburbs.

I moved to just outside of DC a few months ago. You're dealing with $400k apartments...in the suburbs.

Correct it didn't explode. But it didn't go down to become more affordable like much of the country. I get the it is an investment argument but you have to be able to afford the investment on the front end. Sorry if I offend anyone with the next statement but, there is no way on earth I am sending my kids to the Mountain City school system nor Avery for that matter and I currently live in Avery. Ashe maybe.

I added DC into my insanely expensive category, my cousin lives in Centerville, know all about that. But salaries in the area generally compensate for it. He is make twice as much as he was in Florida doing the same job.

[Maddog1956]

Let me restate, the greater Denver Metro Area which I consider Denver is much cheaper. Denver proper is very small size wise. Yes if I want a high rise condo downtown it will be pricey. I have two kids and a dog, I will be in the suburbs where 250-300 buys far more house than it does in Boone. Sales price also doesn't tell the whole story. In Boone if I spend 250 I have to remodel a kitchen and two bathrooms as the home are much older and in greater need a repair/updating. For 250 out there I would need to simply move my furniture in as new construction is the norm.

Again. Boone real estate did not explode over the past year, so I wouldn't say that's the reason for the exodus of faculty.

But, if you're going to live in the suburbs and work in the city, you're typically going to see a 30+ minute commute. If you go to Jefferson or Mountain City, your house gets a lot more affordable and that 30 minute drive would be a lot nicer than the ride from the suburbs.

I moved to just outside of DC a few months ago. You're dealing with $400k apartments...in the suburbs.

Correct it didn't explode. But it didn't go down to become more affordable like much of the country. I get the it is an investment argument but you have to be able to afford the investment on the front end. Sorry if I offend anyone with the next statement but, there is no way on earth I am sending my kids to the Mountain City school system nor Avery for that matter and I currently live in Avery. Ashe maybe.

I added DC into my insanely expensive category, my cousin lives in Centerville, know all about that. But salaries in the area generally compensate for it. He is make twice as much as he was in Florida doing the same job.

Everyone has their own opinion and it is difference if you're retired or not, but if you have a job affordability issues are about the same (except for work for the spouse).

Boone always scores high on affordability for mountain towns. One reasons is the Appalcart is free.

Surprisingly it's also one of the fastest growing small towns.

http://money.usnews.com/money/retiremen ... retirees/4
http://money.usnews.com/money/retiremen ... -in-2012/3

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/egim45eehm/4-boone-nc/

[fjblair]

Real Estate in Boone is so expensive. The difference between what 200,000 buy you in Boone compared to Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston, Asheville Chapel Hill is astounding. Professors at other Universities are living high on the hog while in Boone they are just doing well. I'm sure they visit and see the homes of their former Doctorate pals and get very envious.

It's not that big of a difference unless you are in somewhere like Statesboro.

[fjblair]

Let me restate, the greater Denver Metro Area which I consider Denver is much cheaper. Denver proper is very small size wise. Yes if I want a high rise condo downtown it will be pricey. I have two kids and a dog, I will be in the suburbs where 250-300 buys far more house than it does in Boone. Sales price also doesn't tell the whole story. In Boone if I spend 250 I have to remodel a kitchen and two bathrooms as the home are much older and in greater need a repair/updating. For 250 out there I would need to simply move my furniture in as new construction is the norm.

Again. Boone real estate did not explode over the past year, so I wouldn't say that's the reason for the exodus of faculty.

But, if you're going to live in the suburbs and work in the city, you're typically going to see a 30+ minute commute. If you go to Jefferson or Mountain City, your house gets a lot more affordable and that 30 minute drive would be a lot nicer than the ride from the suburbs.

I moved to just outside of DC a few months ago. You're dealing with $400k apartments...in the suburbs.

Correct it didn't explode. But it didn't go down to become more affordable like much of the country. I get the it is an investment argument but you have to be able to afford the investment on the front end. Sorry if I offend anyone with the next statement but, there is no way on earth I am sending my kids to the Mountain City school system nor Avery for that matter and I currently live in Avery. Ashe maybe.

I added DC into my insanely expensive category, my cousin lives in Centerville, know all about that. But salaries in the area generally compensate for it. He is make twice as much as he was in Florida doing the same job.

I went to Avery schools, not sure what you are so afraid of. Do you think they churn out uneducated idiots?

[ASUPATCH]

Let me restate, the greater Denver Metro Area which I consider Denver is much cheaper. Denver proper is very small size wise. Yes if I want a high rise condo downtown it will be pricey. I have two kids and a dog, I will be in the suburbs where 250-300 buys far more house than it does in Boone. Sales price also doesn't tell the whole story. In Boone if I spend 250 I have to remodel a kitchen and two bathrooms as the home are much older and in greater need a repair/updating. For 250 out there I would need to simply move my furniture in as new construction is the norm.

Again. Boone real estate did not explode over the past year, so I wouldn't say that's the reason for the exodus of faculty.

But, if you're going to live in the suburbs and work in the city, you're typically going to see a 30+ minute commute. If you go to Jefferson or Mountain City, your house gets a lot more affordable and that 30 minute drive would be a lot nicer than the ride from the suburbs.

I moved to just outside of DC a few months ago. You're dealing with $400k apartments...in the suburbs.

Correct it didn't explode. But it didn't go down to become more affordable like much of the country. I get the it is an investment argument but you have to be able to afford the investment on the front end. Sorry if I offend anyone with the next statement but, there is no way on earth I am sending my kids to the Mountain City school system nor Avery for that matter and I currently live in Avery. Ashe maybe.

I added DC into my insanely expensive category, my cousin lives in Centerville, know all about that. But salaries in the area generally compensate for it. He is make twice as much as he was in Florida doing the same job.

I went to Avery schools, not sure what you are so afraid of. Do you think they churn out uneducated idiots?

My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint. Also the test scores are habitually lower than those of Watauga or even Ashe normally. Worked with 30-40 Avery grads in the NC Department of Corrections, many fine men and women, but many did struggle with basic math and grammar. Greatschools gives them a 4 out of 10 so it isn't just me that doesn't hold them in high regard.

[WataugaMan]

"My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint."

Vague statement, viewpoint on what? Examples?

[ASUPATCH]

"My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint."

Vague statement, viewpoint on what? Examples?

Avery county is overwhelmingly causation, Christian and conservative. Voted almost 80% for Mitt Romney, Watauga tends to be 50-50. If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken. For the record I am a registered Libertarian, so I likewise would not send my kid to a school in a district that voted 80% Obama, I prefer equal shares of both.

In case you need a link.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/r ... -carolina/

Makes it essentially tied as the 3rd most conservative county and if Lees McRae students weren't there it would probably be first. Test score are as objective as you can be and they also struggle in comparison to Watauga.

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/acc ... port13.pdf
Avery SAT last three years
1479,1476,1526

Watauga last three
1590,1587,1605

[bcoach]

Not here to argue housing prices but I will tell you that Trulia is the most inaccurate source of real estate information in the country.

[AppGrad1]

"My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint."

Vague statement, viewpoint on what? Examples?

Avery county is overwhelmingly causation, Christian and conservative. Voted almost 80% for Mitt Romney, Watauga tends to be 50-50. If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken. For the record I am a registered Libertarian, so I likewise would send my kid to a school in a district that voted 80% Obama, I prefer equal shares of both.

In case you need a link.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/r ... -carolina/

Doesn't sound much like a bad environment to grow up in???

ASU is 87.34% White (probably one of the least diverse schools)
2.84% Black
3.32 Hispanic
1.34 Asian

Is there anything wrong with ASU?
I've always been in the mindset that kids education is mostly a reflection on the parents education. I made sure my kid studied/did homework/extra curricular things to stay ahead or on course.

[WataugaMan]

"My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint."

Vague statement, viewpoint on what? Examples?

Avery county is overwhelmingly causation, Christian and conservative. Voted almost 80% for Mitt Romney, Watauga tends to be 50-50. If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken. For the record I am a registered Libertarian, so I likewise would send my kid to a school in a district that voted 80% Obama, I prefer equal shares of both.

In case you need a link.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/r ... -carolina/

"If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken."

You're still not being specific, just what are the views of these overwhelmingly "white conservative Avery County teachers?" I get a feeling whatever it is it must be bad! Let's see, all Republicans are bad and all Democrats are good. For the record, I'm a registered Independent and live in the DC Metro Area.

[ASUPATCH]

"My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint."

Vague statement, viewpoint on what? Examples?

Avery county is overwhelmingly causation, Christian and conservative. Voted almost 80% for Mitt Romney, Watauga tends to be 50-50. If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken. For the record I am a registered Libertarian, so I likewise would send my kid to a school in a district that voted 80% Obama, I prefer equal shares of both.

In case you need a link.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/r ... -carolina/

"If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken."

You're still not being specific, just what are the views of these overwhelmingly "white conservative Avery County teachers?" I get a feeling whatever it is it must be bad! Let's see, all Republicans are bad and all Democrats are good. For the record, I'm a registered Independent and live in the DC Metro Area.

Where did I say Democrats are good? I said I would not move somewhere that was equally as liberal. I would like them to see both sides of issues, be it abortion, creationism, varieties of music. I guarantee a poly sci class in Avery isn't taught with the same slant as a poly sci class in San Francisco. God forbid I want my kids to be well rounded.

[ASUPATCH]

"My wife and I would prefer to send our kids to a school with more diversity. Avery is one of the most homogenous schools in this great state. Would prefer them to be subject to more than one viewpoint."

Vague statement, viewpoint on what? Examples?

Avery county is overwhelmingly causation, Christian and conservative. Voted almost 80% for Mitt Romney, Watauga tends to be 50-50. If you don't think public school teachers interject their views when they teach you are sorely mistaken. For the record I am a registered Libertarian, so I likewise would send my kid to a school in a district that voted 80% Obama, I prefer equal shares of both.

In case you need a link.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/r ... -carolina/

Doesn't sound much like a bad environment to grow up in???

ASU is 87.34% White (probably one of the least diverse schools)
2.84% Black
3.32 Hispanic
1.34 Asian

Is there anything wrong with ASU?
I've always been in the mindset that kids education is mostly a reflection on the parents education. I made sure my kid studied/did homework/extra curricular things to stay ahead or on course.

Avery and ASU have little to nothing in common outside of race. For a die hard conservative like yourself it would be heaven. For someone that votes for GOPS DEMS and LIBS its not so fun. Everyone thinks and act the same way, zero diversity. You are aware that diversity pertains to far more than just race correct?

[WataugaMan]

"I guarantee a poly sci class in Avery isn't taught with the same slant as a poly sci class in San Francisco. God forbid I want my kids to be well rounded."

Now we're being more specific, thanks. Okay, let's see if I get this right (no pun intended) :

1. A ply sci class taught in "conservative" Avery County will be one sided.

2. However, a ply sci class taught in "liberal" San Francisco will be well rounded.

Sorry if I'm reading too much into your statement, so, are we to assume:

1. All Conservatives are one sighted.

2. All Liberals are well rounded.

[ASUPATCH]

"I guarantee a poly sci class in Avery isn't taught with the same slant as a poly sci class in San Francisco. God forbid I want my kids to be well rounded."

Now we're being more specific, thanks. Okay, let's see if I get this right (no pun intended) :

1. A ply sci class taught in "conservative" Avery County will be one sided.

2. However, a ply sci class taught in "liberal" San Francisco will be well rounded.

Sorry if I'm reading too much into your statement, so, are we to assume:

1. All Conservatives are one sighted.

2. All Liberals are well rounded.

Really? Not the same slant, as in San Fran is slanted as well.
I have said I DO NOT WANT TO GO TO A COUNTY THAT IS AS LIBERAL AS AVERY IS CONSERVATIVE. Please reread. No San Fran would not be well rounded. I said give me an area that is 50-50. Holy crap really?

So yes
Avery too Conservative
San Fran Too Liberal
As a side note at least San Fran does have some ethnic diversity, which IMO is far superior to living in a white cocoon. But I still don't want my kids at a schools likely to be radically Liberal or conservative no matter how diverse.
I prefer schools in more 50-50 areas where both sides of an argument are more likely to be thought.