I've had it

[asufan87]

I don't know if I buy the idea that Moore did not slip in recruiting; that he went after players but just didn't get them. How do you get those players for the first 20 years of your career and stop getting them after 3 National Championships and a win over Michigan? Maybe there is something to opponents using his age against him in recruiting wars those last few years. Maybe it was the change in philosophy; with the power-I you need good linemen and with the spread (and our good qb/wr) not as much. Whatever happened we need to load up in the trenches.

We simply didn't target, or make the necessary effort to target, the number of players needed on the OL in the post championship years. In 2008, we pursued and signed ONE offensive lineman, Chad Turner. Mr. Turner was an acacdemic casualty who never played a down for ASU. In the 2009 recruiting class, we invited three OL prospects to make official visits. One was from Florida, another from Pennsylvania, and the third being Dakota Dozier after he had already committed to Furman. All three elected to go elsewhere. I've got no problem with that. What I did have a problem with was that from a geographic footprint spanning from Pennsylvania to Florida, we only found THREE offensive linemen worthy of attention. I guess all the other OL on the east coast were simply not good enough to be pursued. In an effort to avoid a total whiff, we offered a late visit to Storm Moore whose other offer in hand was from SC State. He visited, signed, and then suffered a medical issue during off season conditioning that ended his playing career. Two years, nothing to show for it. Elliott then leaves for SC. Can't blame the guy for furthering his career. We top that off by hiring a total hemorrhoid in Bob McClain and dysfuntion ensues and the revolving door on the OL continues.

In my opinion, we got complacent in recruiting during the post championship years. Show up late in the process, flash the national championship rings, and they're ours! Doesn't work that way. Coach Moore was often quoted as saying we don't offer a kid unless he tells us he wants to be here. That's recruiting in reverse. You should ALWAYS be selling your program, not waiting for players to come to you. I'm not posting this to bash Moore, but big mistakes were made and we're paying the price now. In hindsight I'd be willing to bet even Moore would have done things differently if he had a do-over.

[moehler]

to a certain degree, I understand, and agree with Moore's belief that he only offered to kids who wanted to be in Boone, if a kid goes to a school that he doesn't really want to attend, chances are, he is probably not going to change his mind, and probably will become a problem, or just transfer. But, I do agree with you, that because of the championships, and the new first class facilities, you can make a case that Moore and the coaching staff, got alittle cocky, and perhaps didn't sell the program like they did before the championships began. Just speculation, we will never really know, but it looks like losing Dozier, when it appeared he was going to be a Mountaineer, has turned out to be the biggest recruiting lost in the last 10 years.

[vegattk]

I'm reposting this from another thread ---

I wasn't at the game and only listened to David and Steve so I can't give a personal opinion on what I saw/didn't see --- I think some people mistake "lack of effort" with many other factors - teams which are struggling almost seem to find another way for things to go south and it's not always in the hands of the players/coaches - Last week the Price catch/drop (and my buddy Firemoose was watching and says without a doubt it should have been a TD) - score there we go up 10-7 and builds some life - yesterday a 98 INT return - a TD for us there and we got up 10-6 --- and it began at Montana - going into score at the end of the 3rd and fumble on the 3 yard line - TD there and we are down 16-13 heading into the 4th ---That's not to say we would have won those game, but I truly believe things like that severely affect a struggling team, especially a young team ---
Sure our coaches are struggling as well - they didn't all go "stupid" in the off-season - the keys guys have coached for some times in big games through tough seasons - they must have time!!!

As many like to say - "Satterfield is in over his head" --- Well hell yeah he is, just like 99% of young assistant coaches taking over their first head coaching job (add all the other drama with this ASU job) - After a few years as a head coach I looked back on my first couple of years and thought "How could I have been so dumb?" - "Why in the world did I/did I not do that? - etc., and I was just coaching in high school not big-time college football---

The coaches are frustrated - the seniors are frustrated - the young guys are struggling at times but let's not confuse all of this, plus the "bounce of the ball" with "lack of effort and giving up" ---

I was at the game so I'll share my thoughts based on what I saw Saturday. The lack of effort by some players was noticeable, but there were plenty that still played hard. It seemed like a few of them (mainly seniors) were trying too hard and they ended up forcing things. I may be way off here, but it seems like the problem lies with the guys in the middle classes. The seniors are playing hard since it's their last go, the freshmen are playing hard trying to improve, but the juniors and some sophomores seem to have given up. Obviously that isn't true for all of them but it seems like most of the issues lie within that group. It could be a combination of several things like playing for a coach that didn't recruit them, poor attitude/poor character evaluation in recruiting, lack of talent, or having nothing to play for this year. The reason probably varies from player to player.

The most glaring issue is that we are a much worse team now than we were on August 31. Unfortunately, this is a reflection on coaching. That doesn't mean I think we should get rid of Satterfield, but his lack of experience is hurting him in this area. I'm just hoping he can figure out some way to motivate this team, and find a way to win a game or two down the stretch. There was zero life on the sideline after the pick 6 to put us down 13-3. This group is too fragile mentally to take a blow like that and bounce back. Furman was not a good team, but after that INT we were never in the game with them.

Do you think this could be because SS had a hand in recruiting them?

[WVAPPeer]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

[asumike83]

It can't be emphasized enough that our star QB didn't come back the same player from ACL surgery. If we had known that before the season started expectations would have been lowered dramatically.

This. 1000X this.

With the abundance of All-SoCon talent that departed from the 2012 team, I don't think anything was as big as the "loss" of Jamal after the knee surgery. Most important position on the field and as this season has shown, a significant drop-off behind him.

No knee injury to Jamal, this is a 5-2 or 4-3 team IMO. Would still be a very flawed team but nowhere near 1-6.

[JCline0429]

Doesn't look like complacent recruiting to me.

[hapapp]

Lots of folks are saying that we have some players not giving their all. I'm not disputing that and I don't want names but give some examples of how the players are not giving their all.

[hapapp]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

Is it there now? Others who follow recruiting more closely can speak to this. I'm not taking sides as to whether we let down our efforts but I have heard that we were not as aggressive as in the past resting somewhat on our laurels. Is it possible we thought our titles would speak for themselves and we didn't need to go after players like we had in the past?

[ASUMountaineer]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

I hear ya, but I only see one lineman on that list, and I think that's where the lackluster recruiting is showing the most.

[appst89]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

How many of those guys are linemen? Our skill position recruiting has not dropped off too much.

[appst89]

Doesn't look like complacent recruiting to me.

Where are the linemen on that list?

[Appsolutely]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

Recruiting skill players is one thing. But football games are won in the trenches. Linemen are noticeably missing from your list. And hiring a turd for OL coach didn't help, either.

[T-Dog]

Another area App hasn't had solid recruiting in is defensive ends. We haven't had a shutdown DE since Tharrington and before then, we churned out dominant player after dominant player.

[JCline0429]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

Recruiting skill players is one thing. But football games are won in the trenches. Linemen are noticeably missing from your list. And hiring a turd for OL coach didn't help, either.

You don't always sign who you go after.

[appst89]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

Recruiting skill players is one thing. But football games are won in the trenches. Linemen are noticeably missing from your list. And hiring a turd for OL coach didn't help, either.

You don't always sign who you go after.

We went after one lineman in 2008 and three in 2009. You can't sign anyone you don't go after.

[JCline0429]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

Recruiting skill players is one thing. But football games are won in the trenches. Linemen are noticeably missing from your list. And hiring a turd for OL coach didn't help, either.

You don't always sign who you go after.

We went after one lineman in 2008 and three in 2009. You can't sign anyone you don't go after.

How do you know that?

[luvyosef]

I don't know if I buy the idea that Moore did not slip in recruiting; that he went after players but just didn't get them. How do you get those players for the first 20 years of your career and stop getting them after 3 National Championships and a win over Michigan? Maybe there is something to opponents using his age against him in recruiting wars those last few years. Maybe it was the change in philosophy; with the power-I you need good linemen and with the spread (and our good qb/wr) not as much. Whatever happened we need to load up in the trenches.

We simply didn't target, or make the necessary effort to target, the number of players needed on the OL in the post championship years. In 2008, we pursued and signed ONE offensive lineman, Chad Turner. Mr. Turner was an acacdemic casualty who never played a down for ASU. In the 2009 recruiting class, we invited three OL prospects to make official visits. One was from Florida, another from Pennsylvania, and the third being Dakota Dozier after he had already committed to Furman. All three elected to go elsewhere. I've got no problem with that. What I did have a problem with was that from a geographic footprint spanning from Pennsylvania to Florida, we only found THREE offensive linemen worthy of attention. I guess all the other OL on the east coast were simply not good enough to be pursued. In an effort to avoid a total whiff, we offered a late visit to Storm Moore whose other offer in hand was from SC State. He visited, signed, and then suffered a medical issue during off season conditioning that ended his playing career. Two years, nothing to show for it. Elliott then leaves for SC. Can't blame the guy for furthering his career. We top that off by hiring a total hemorrhoid in Bob McClain and dysfuntion ensues and the revolving door on the OL continues.

In my opinion, we got complacent in recruiting during the post championship years. Show up late in the process, flash the national championship rings, and they're ours! Doesn't work that way. Coach Moore was often quoted as saying we don't offer a kid unless he tells us he wants to be here. That's recruiting in reverse. You should ALWAYS be selling your program, not waiting for players to come to you. I'm not posting this to bash Moore, but big mistakes were made and we're paying the price now. In hindsight I'd be willing to bet even Moore would have done things differently if he had a do-over.

Yes sir, you MUST sell the product to these kids. Good post!

[Saint3333]

This is going to take a couple of years to correct.

Next year is going to be interesting as well. If we can hold on to the recruits we have verbals from coupled with the players we have redshirting we are either going to see quite a bit more effort from some of these juniors and sophomores that people are saying lack effort this year or we are likely to see attrition as their playing time is decreased significantly.

The guys recruited last year and verbals thus far this year will challenge for playing time in 2014.

[AppSt94]

Question --- How many guys did we have in Pro Camps this year who came to APP after the 2007 season? ---
off the top of my head -
Sam Martin
D. McCray
J. Kimbrough
T. Cadet
T. Sanders
S. Miller
D. Presley
maybe J.Fletcher and M.LeGree

Really = show me other FCS teams who recruited this kind of talent? ---

Recruiting skill players is one thing. But football games are won in the trenches. Linemen are noticeably missing from your list. And hiring a turd for OL coach didn't help, either.

You don't always sign who you go after.

We went after one lineman in 2008 and three in 2009. You can't sign anyone you don't go after.

How do you know that?

True, we don't know how many targets we had. But if I may reference a post that you made in another thread. We signed 8 OL between 2008 and 2011. Given such factors such as injury, transfers, academics, and kids deciding that they don't want to play anymore, you don't leave yourself much margin for error on evaluation. Bringing in 2.5 OL per year on average creates problems that will manifest themselves long term. Our coaching staff should target 15 OL per year for recruiting and sell them on the program. The first 5 to commit get scholarships and the others are put on a waiting list if something opens up. The same philosophy works for the DL.

[asufan87]

And after the two year OL drought, our ability to evaluate OL talent became the issue. Dylan Bostic, Kalan Jones, Ron Henderson, Derek Evans, Matt Privette. All out-of-state scholarships except for one. Little, if any, playing time from any of these guys and then they were gone. I realize player attrition happens everywhere, but the years following the national championships have been a disaster from a recruiting perspective for the OL.

For the record, Steven Miller essentially recruited us. If not for his high school coach, a former player at ETSU, sending in tape on Steven's behalf a couple weeks before signing day, he'd have gone elsewhere. He was off our radar until then. I'm glad we got him, but it wasn't through an intentional effort to target and pursue him.